5th Bn Border Regiment cap badge

[Lennyboy]

Hi Guys,

 

Fifty years ago I purchased a medal group issued to a Major A F Broadley Smith who was killed in action on 16 June 1915. He has no descendants that I can trace so I'm now having his medals refurbished and mounted. I would like to obtain a cap badge to go with the medals and maybe the officers' insignia which I believe is a King's crown. I understand the correct Regimental badge is like the one pictured below, but I've been told that there was a difference between those issued to Officers and to Other Ranks. Can anyone please enlighten me on that point as I'd like to purchase the right one?

Thanks for your assistance.

Len

 

 

[cmf]

Hi Len,

 

Welcome to the forum!

 

You’re quite right, the cap-badge you’ve shown is the correct pattern for 5^th (Cumberland) Bn (T.F.), The Border Regiment, as adopted in 1908.  For Other Ranks, the badge was in white metal, and worn on the peaked Forage Cap when in ‘Review Order’ (i.e. when wearing scarlet Full Dress, either for parade or for ‘walking-out’), and also on the khaki Service Dress Cap when in ‘Drill Order’ or ‘Marching Order’ (for which khaki Service Dress was worn). For Officers, however, the badge was either in silver (when worn on the peaked Forage Cap), or in bronze (when worn on the khaki Service Dress Cap).

 

From the early 1900s, Other Ranks’ cap-badges (for non-Scottish units) were manufactured with a vertical-shank, or ‘slider’ for attaching to the cap-band; for Officers, cap-badges were usually constructed using ‘blades’ (i.e. flat metal tangs, one either side of the badge, which pushed through the cap-band and folded) or ‘loops’ (i.e. two or more loops, pushed through the cap-band and secured with a split-pin).  

 

There’s a debate amongst collectors as to whether, for certain regiments,  Officers’ bronze cap-badges with ‘loops’ are genuinely cap-badges,  as for many units the specified Officers’ collar-badges (which invariably had loops) on Service Dress were exactly the same as the bronze cap-badge.  This applied to Officers of the regular battalions of the Border Regiment, who wore the same bronze badges on both Service Dress jacket collar and cap. However, the same badge would be manufactured over the years by different suppliers, which means all types of fittings are to be found on Officers’ cap-badges, the choice really being that of the military tailor who supplied an Officer his uniform.

 

Luckily, the wearing of the same cap- and collar-badge did not extend to the 5^th (Cumberland) Bn. In Service Dress, Officers of the 5^th Bn at first wore bronze Maltese Crosses (with ‘5^th’ in the centre) on the collar, and later a bronze badge similar to the cap-badge, although there is no possibility of mistaking the two, as this small collar badge had the Chinese Dragon in the centre, and not the ‘5^th’ found on the cap-badge. If you’d ever want to purchase an Officers' 5^th Bn Service-Dress collar badge, it would go together with a bronze ‘T’ that was worn underneath it on the collar.

 

I’d like to recommend to you a few videos on You Tube, by Cumbrian collector CJ Campbell. In the first, he describes the white metal Other Ranks’ cap-badge of the 5^th (Cumberland) Bn, which was of exactly the same design as the Officers’ bronze version. In the second, he describes an Officers’ bronze cap-badge; the one he has is for the regular battalions (i.e. 1^st and 2^nd Bns) of the regiment, but his description of the rear-side holds true for the bronze 5^th Bn version. In the third, he describes the 5^th Bn’s Other Ranks’ Full Dress white metal Maltese Cross collar-badges, the same design also being worn by Officers, in silver when in Full Dress, and in bronze when in Service Dress.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17TLjfUAuMg&list=PLIPc62SPHS3NhUGA9gwR1kM4akrHmCIqv&index=44

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HmOhPHwekY&list=PLIPc62SPHS3NhUGA9gwR1kM4akrHmCIqv&index=27&t=0s

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nW56H8vAag0&list=PLIPc62SPHS3NhUGA9gwR1kM4akrHmCIqv&index=5

 

Chris

Edited 8 March , 2020 by cmf

[Old Owl]

Hi Len,

PM sent--I look forward to hearing from you,

Regards,

Robert

On 23/02/2020 at 05:18, Lennyboy said:

Hi Guys,

 

Fifty years ago I purchased a medal group issued to a Major A F Broadley Smith who was killed in action on 16 June 1915. He has no descendants that I can trace so I'm now having his medals refurbished and mounted. I would like to obtain a cap badge to go with the medals and maybe the officers' insignia which I believe is a King's crown. I understand the correct Regimental badge is like the one pictured below, but I've been told that there was a difference between those issued to Officers and to Other Ranks. Can anyone please enlighten me on that point as I'd like to purchase the right one?

Thanks for your assistance.

Len

 

 

 

[Lennyboy]

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you for such a comprehensive reply! I was expecting a yes/no sort of answer but of course nothing in life is so straightforward. I will certainly use the information you give when searching out a badge. The medals are due back from the shop this week, and if they look suitably impressive I'll post a pic here. The videos you referenced were also enlightening and I'll look at them again in coming days.

 

Regards,

Len 

[cmf]

Hi Len,

 

No problem at all! Glad you found the information informative! Given where I'm from, I'm always interested in anything to do with the Border Regiment . . . you've probably researched him up to the hilt, but I thought I'd post a couple of pieces about Major Broadley-Smith, one an article from 'The Lakes Herald', the other his entry in 'De Ruvigny’s Roll of Honour, 1914-24' (Vol 1, p332) . . .

 

Best wishes,

 

Chris

 

‘The Lakes Herald’, Fri 25/06/1915, p4

 

FORMER AMBLESIDE SPORTSMAN KILLED IN ACTION.

 

MAJOR ALAN BROADLEY SMITH. 

 

On Saturday morning news was received at Workington that Major Alan Broadley Smith, of the 5th Border Regiment, had been shot in the head and killed by a sniper in France on June 16th. He had just returned from the trenches after seven days' leave. 

 

Major Broadley Smith was son of Mr. Broadley Smith, who used to live at Broadlands, Ambleside, and afterwards at Waterhead House (now “The Grange "), Ambleside. He was always very keen on sport, and particularly fond of dogs. After leaving Ambleside he became gentleman-huntsman to Mr. Curwen's Workington Hall Foxhounds. He was a capable and popular huntsman and worked the pack up to a high degree of efficiency. 

 

His friends in Workington and the Lake District will deeply regret his untimely decease.  

 

 

 

Edited 10 March , 2020 by cmf

[Lennyboy]

Hi Chris,

 

Thank you for posting those articles, I hadn't seen the first one. 

 

Yes, I've spent many hours on the computer late at night looking for clues. Isn't that a great resource? I also hammered Ancestry.com trying to find living relatives, but to no avail. From the time I purchased the medals in 1970 til at least the mid-1990s there was no hope of finding information on anyone, but now the world is at our fingertips.

 

The most comprehensive article I found was in the Whitehaven News of 24/06/1915 (page 7), a scanned copy of which was supplied to me by the Whitehaven Record Office ( whitehaven.archives@cumbria.gov.uk ). Unfortunately due to copyright restrictions I am not allowed to post it here, but it is well worth a read if anyone is interested. There is a huge excel spreadsheet of 23,000 soldiers mentioned in Whitehaven News articles which seems to be readily available, but I expect you're already aware of that.

 

It's time to call that medal shop again ...

 

Regards,

Len

[cmf]

Hi Len,

 

Yes, military genealogy sucks you into every corner of the net as you chase every last avenue of information, while that midnight oil burns away . . .  glad that article was new to you, and be sure to post a photo of the medals  . . . :-)

 

Best wishes,

 

Chris

[Lennyboy]

Hi Chris,

 

I picked up the medals today, so stage one is complete at last. Some pics are attached. Next I plan on purchasing a medal box here: https://www.facebook.com/Medalbox/

I've had a look at sample boxes and found them very well made and at a reasonable cost for safe long term storage. Needless to say I will continue the ad hoc research!

 

Regards,

Len