Sloping Arms WW1 Style

[PhilB]

The soldier on the left is E Naylor, Northumberland Fusiliers, died 24/10/18. (Photo from The Quick and the Dead, Richard Van Emden)

I don`t recall any other men sloping arms this way. Can anyone explain?

[Ron Clifton]

That is the American way, I believe. These men look as if they might be Territorials (non-standard belt and pouches) so perhaps they had only recently been issued with rifles and hadn't been properly drilled yet.

 

Ron

[Gardenerbill]

There is a little board bottom right with 2/20 on it, could that be one of the London Regiments?

[TullochArd]

That is also the pre-SMLE way, I believe.  This (fore and aft) grip is found on many photos of British and Empire soldiers at the slope using magazine-less rifles. I believe these older rifles were still being used/converted 1903-1909-ish and (based upon my experience of the SLR/SA80 transition) would speculate that the revised drill took might have taken a little time to catch up with the appearance of the new rifle ……... I stand by to be corrected !   

Edited 21 February , 2020 by TullochArd

[PhilB]

2 hours ago, Gardenerbill said:

There is a little board bottom right with 2/20 on it, could that be one of the London Regiments?

267455, 9th Northumberland Fusiliers. Similar capbadge!

[593jones]

Do the soldiers have Arisaka rifles?  Clearly not Lee Enfields of any type.

[TullochArd]

3 minutes ago, 593jones said:

Do the soldiers have Arisaka rifles?  Clearly not Lee Enfields of any type.

 

Agreed - maybe Ross rifles?  Over to the GWF Armourer boffins

[593jones]

I don't think the knob on the bolt handle looks quite right for the Ross, that was more flattened rather than spherical.  

[4thVBGH]

Does appear to be Arisaka rifles, though the earlier Type 30 rifle looking at the action and safety area.

[shippingsteel]

I would agree, Type 30 Arisaka rifles with the straight bolt-handle, and the timber handguard forward of the rear-sight.

[PhilB]

But still a non-standard slope. Probably taught by an old timer? When did the style of slope change?

[Resurgam13]

I saw this photo yesterday and wondered why the Diggers are right-sloping arms?

 

[stripeyman]

Change...…...Arms!

[Ron Clifton]

It may well have been a "Change - Arms" (to relieve the weight) but an alternative answer might be that they were passing a reviewing officer and the command "Eyes - Left" would have been slightly awkward with the rifles on their left shoulders.

 

Ron

[TullochArd]

2 hours ago, PhilB said:

But still a non-standard slope. Probably taught by an old timer? When did the style of slope change?

 

"Probably taught by an old timer?" ……… probably. 

[C.TIERNEY.]

The soldier on the right appears to be wearing a simplified tunic.

 

So could this be late 1914 plus?

 

Re the Digger photo, would it have been developed the wrong way around?  

 

C.T.  

 

[tootrock]

39 minutes ago, C.TIERNEY. said:

Re the Digger photo, would it have been developed the wrong way around?

The name on the shop front appears to be correct. MYER?

Martin

[C.TIERNEY.]

Well spotted Martin. 

[TullochArd]

On 22/02/2020 at 08:57, Resurgam13 said:

I saw this photo yesterday and wondered why the Diggers are right-sloping arms?

 

 

 

…….having earlier received the command "Change Arms on the March" … "Chaaaaaange  Arms" 

 

Regarding the simplified tunic - well spotted C.T. - that would certainly date the photo no earlier than 1914?

Edited 24 February , 2020 by TullochArd

[303man]

3 hours ago, C.TIERNEY. said:

The soldier on the right appears to be wearing a simplified tunic.

 

So could this be late 1914 plus?

 

Re the Digger photo, would it have been developed the wrong way around?  

 

C.T.  

 

No the reason for the brim of the hat being pinned up is due to slope Arms.  They have changed arms a drill movement done to this day with the SA80 to relieve the weight over a period of time.

[cmf]

Just to add some details re. the adoption of the new 'Slope-Arms' in the 1890s . . .

The 'Rifle, Magazine (Mark I)' was officially introduced on 01/12/1888, but it was not until January, 1890, that the first troops received the new rifle, when the infantry battalions of the three infantry brigades of Aldershot District Command were ordered to hand in their Martini-Henrys. The Foot Guards followed suit in February, 1890. To accompany the new rifle, a new manual, entitled  'Rifle Exercises (Magazine Rifle): Manual Exercises, Physical Drill with Arms, and Bayonet Exercise. 1890' was introduced via Army Order 48 of 01/02/1890. However, the 'Slope-Arms' was fundamentally the same as that for the Martini-Henry, i.e. with the barrel uppermost, but instead of the rifle raised ' . . . until the guard is pressed gently against the hollow of the shoulder', the instruction was now ' . . . until the magazine presses gently against the hollow of the shoulder'.

The shortcomings of maintaining the existing manner of 'slope-arms', for troops now carrying a rifle with an external magazine, were obvious at the time. As the 'Army & Navy Gazette' noted on 15/11/1890:

"There is one matter, however, connected with the rifle which jumps to the eyes of every one who sees a soldier of the modern average height shouldering or trying to shoulder it: it is that arms cannot be shouldered nor carried at a slope in consequence of the magazine catching under the man's arm or on his shoulder, and that when the magazine rifle is used the manual drill is all out of gear."

The designation of the rifle was altered to the 'Rifle, Magazine, Lee-Metford (Mark I) on 08/04/1891. The next manual, now entitled 'Rifle Exercises (Lee-Metford Rifle): Manual Exercises and Bayonet Exercise. 1892' was introduced by Army Order 66 of 01/04/1892. And it was with this manual that the instruction for 'Slope-Arms' was changed to place the rifle flat on the shoulder, with the magazine outwards from the body.

The contemporary illustration below shows privates of the Coldstream Guards in 'Home Service Marching Order', circa 1890-92, carrying the magazine rifle at the traditional 'Slope-Arms', but seemingly with the magazine removed for comfort. Another nice detail in this colour plate which verifies the date-window in question is the carrying of the 'Entrenching Implement' - introduced for infantry in 1882, on a scale of one to every two men, it was abolished in 1892.

It does seem rather old-fashioned that the Northumberland Fusiliers have adopted this stance for the 'Slope'. The lack of an external magazine on the Arisaka might have inspired an old Volunteer drill-instructor to return to the old style 'Slope-Arms'. Although soon after the introduction of the 1892 rifle exercises for the Lee-Metford, those troops of the Regular Army still carrying the Martini-Henry had been ordered to adopt, as far as was practicable, the rifle exercises for the Lee-Metford, the same was not true for the units of the Volunteer Force, who continued to use the old rifle exercises - and did not receive the Lee-Metford till the late 1890s. That said, I've never seen the Pattern 1914, which was also without an external magazine, carried using the old-style 'Slope-Arms', and it isn't as if there was an ergonomic bar to carrying the Arisaka at the 'Slope' with the rifle flat on the shoulder, as we see from the photo detail here https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/107981-japanese-rifles-issued-to-2line-territorial-early-1915/, and the full photo here: https://derbyshireterritorials.uk/26th-battalion/the-move-to-epping-and-luton-february-1915/

Chris

Edited 2 September , 2023 by cmf