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Histoire

Abbreviation 'A.C.4' in records

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Histoire

Any idea what this means? For context it is c.Feb 1916 and is within the 'Regt or Depot' column of the Statement of Services paperwork.

 

Thanks

Edited by Histoire

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Terry_Reeves

Does this document refer to an officer? If so it might AG 4.

 

TR

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Histoire
14 hours ago, Terry_Reeves said:

Does this document refer to an officer? If so it might AG 4.

 

TR

Thanks Terry.

 

No, he's a Private. I'm attaching an image of the offending term below.

 

Thanks

 

Section_Service Record 31240_208902-00307.jpg

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MaxD

Army Cyclist [Corps] 4 [Div] ?  Is he overseas at that date shown?

 

Max

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Histoire

Thanks Max

 

He was just back in the UK from the MEF via Malta.

 

Any info about the Army Cyclist Corps at all? Perhaps it could tie in with his location at the time..but then again that may be too easy :)

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kenf48

Suggest you have a look at the LLT

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-sussex-regiment/

 

In the absence of a name or any other context which makes things rather difficult to say the least, it appears he  enlisted as a TF soldier in the 2/4 or second line (reserve) 4th Bn Royal Sussex on the 5th October (1914?). On the 12th July 1915 he was posted to the first line 1/4 Battalion and presumably embarked overseas to the Dardanelles with that Battalion.  Invalided back to the UK he was posted to a home service unit of the 4th Battalion.  The AC probably does refer to Army Cyclists but in the 3/6 which was absorbed by the 4th Bn in April 1916.

 

He was then posted to the 70th Provisional Battalion, another Home Service unit which became the 15th Battalion Royal Sussex on the 1st September 1917.  On the 19th September (?) posted back to the 4th Reserve Battalion Royal Sussex.

 

Essentially what you are looking at is a man who served in the Dardanelles Campaign who was not fit enough to return to active duty overseas on the dates you have posted but remained in the Royal Sussex Regiment between enlistment and  the 19th September (?).

 

Ken

 

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owen4256

In this context Administrative Centre 4th Royal Sussex see attached extract from the Sussex Agricultural Express October 1915

 

Best

 

Clive

image.jpeg

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kenf48
1 hour ago, owen4256 said:

In this context Administrative Centre 4th Royal Sussex see attached extract from the Sussex Agricultural Express October 1915

 

 

That makes more sense, probably hospitalised, or recovering.

 

Ken

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MaxD

I'd say Clive has it.

 

Max

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Histoire

Thanks all.

 

Yes, he was suffering with Dysentry and others.

Following return to the UK had subsequent postings to Kent and the Irish Rifles, and a transfer to the ASC.

 

I am confused about army organisation, maybe you can help. Were the members of a corps (in this case AC) distributed across different battalions? So someone could, say, be in both the Sussex and the A.C. corps?

 

Was a posting effectively a temporary transfer, i.e. being posted from Sussex to Kent was a loan rather than a transfer?

 

Thanks again.

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kenf48
11 minutes ago, Histoire said:

I am confused about army organisation, maybe you can help. Were the members of a corps (in this case AC) distributed across different battalions? So someone could, say, be in both the Sussex and the A.C. corps?

 

I think we are agreed, it's not Army Cyclists but as Clive has shown Administrative Centre 4th Battalion.

 

The administrative centre for the TF was roughly the equivalent of the 'Depot Battalion' of regular battalions and usually located within the Headquarters of a Territorial Force.

 

They dealt with the recruiting of men to the TF, initial issue of kit, initial posting etc.  

Men who were non-operational due to sickness or wounds were usually placed on the 'Depot' strength until recovered when they were posted to a Reserve Battalion or Home Service unit where they remained until fit enough for active service overseas.  He may have been on 'light duties' at the AC.  In February 1916 direct enlistment and recruitment to the TF virtually ceased with the introduction of the Military Service Act. 

 

 

32 minutes ago, Histoire said:

Was a posting effectively a temporary transfer, i.e. being posted from Sussex to Kent was a loan rather than a transfer?

 

Not exactly, in the fragment you have posted this man remained with units of the Royal Sussex.  

 

He joined the Royal Sussex and was posted to the 2/4 , a reserve unit, he was posted to the 1/4 to bring that Battalion put to strength for active overseas service. On repatriation he was posted back to the 4th Reserve Battalion (or AC) which was renamed in April 1916 (see LLT).   In June he was posted to the 70th Provisional Battalion, Provisional Battalions were relatively short lived, they were formed in June 1915 from men in the County TF Association units who had not signed the Imperial Obligation for Overseas Service or for some other reason were only fit for Home Service.  On the 1st January 1917 they received Regimental titles and the 70th was designated 15th Battalion Royal Sussex (see LLT as previously posted).

 

He would have been transferred to the Kent Regiment and renumbered, and again to the Irish Rifles I suspect these occurred in France, however the record may show 'posted'  The two terms are used interchangeably in the records.  Essentially if he was renumbered to either of the two regiments he was not 'on loan'.  

We often see, for example men who were 'posted on loan' or 'attached' to a unit and the transfer becoming permanent some months later.

 

Ken

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Histoire
9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

 

I think we are agreed, it's not Army Cyclists but as Clive has shown Administrative Centre 4th Battalion.

 

"Perhaps I missed it, but I couldn't see anything posted by 'Clive'?" That would make sense though, being ill bounding about on a bike would probably be the last thing to do...

 

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The administrative centre for the TF was roughly the equivalent of the 'Depot Battalion' of regular battalions and usually located within the Headquarters of a Territorial Force.

 

They dealt with the recruiting of men to the TF, initial issue of kit, initial posting etc.  

Men who were non-operational due to sickness or wounds were usually placed on the 'Depot' strength

 

"what does 'depot strength' mean please?

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

until recovered when they were posted to a Reserve Battalion or Home Service unit where they remained until fit enough for active service overseas.  He may have been on 'light duties' at the AC.  In February 1916 direct enlistment and recruitment to the TF virtually ceased with the introduction of the Military Service Act. 

 

 

 

Not exactly, in the fragment you have posted this man remained with units of the Royal Sussex.  

 

Sorry, I meant subsequent to this part of the record. please see additional fragment attached here.

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

He joined the Royal Sussex and was posted to the 2/4 , a reserve unit, he was posted to the 1/4 to bring that Battalion put to strength for active overseas service. On repatriation he was posted back to the 4th Reserve Battalion (or AC) which was renamed in April 1916 (see LLT).   In June he was posted to the 70th Provisional Battalion, Provisional Battalions were relatively short lived, they were formed in June 1915 from men in the County TF Association units who had not signed the Imperial Obligation for Overseas Service or for some other reason were only fit for Home Service.  On the 1st January 1917 they received Regimental titles and the 70th was designated 15th Battalion Royal Sussex (see LLT as previously posted).

 

He would have been transferred to the Kent Regiment and renumbered, and again to the Irish Rifles I suspect these occurred in France, however the record may show 'posted'  The two terms are used interchangeably in the records.  Essentially if he was renumbered to either of the two regiments he was not 'on loan'.  

Ah, ambiguous Army records again..

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

We often see, for example men who were 'posted on loan' or 'attached' to a unit and the transfer becoming permanent some months later.

That's interesting, thanks. So if it were a temp loan, it would be indicated somehow? (in theory at least)

 

9 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Ken

 

Service Record 31240_208902-00307.jpg

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Histoire
34 minutes ago, Histoire said:

 

 

34 minutes ago, Histoire said:

additional fragments attached here

 

Service Record 31240_208902-00307 copy 2.jpg

 

GBM_WO363-4_007273195_01702.jpeg

Edited by Histoire
caption

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kenf48

The post from Clive is the press cutting at post 7 

 

The Regimental Depot was the administrative headquarters of a Regiment, pre-WW1 most County Regiments had two active service Battalions who rotated between home and foreign service across the Empire.  The Depot was responsible for, amongst other things recruitment and and training. It was the  HQ and repository of Regimental records and traditions.  The TF Administrative Centre performed a roughly similar function for TF Units.  During the war men were posted to the ‘Depot’ strength if they were inactive, it was a ‘paper’ posting for pay and allowances, it did not necessarily mean they were physically at the Depot (or AC).  For example a man hospitalised from an active service Battalion would be replaced, he could not be an ‘orphan’ so was posted to the Depot Strength whilst he recovered.  On recovery he would be posted to a Reserve Battalion (the increase in numbers and exigencies of the war meant the Depot/Training Battalions evolved but the HQ/administrative functions remained the same) and from there to an active duty unit.  This pattern is reflected in your man's service.

 

The chronology for your mystery man shows he, along with hundreds of others was ‘combed out’ from a Home Service unit, probably having been declared fit at the end of 1916.  He was posted back to what by then had become the 4th (Reserve) Battalion.  From there he was posted to the Infantry Base Depot (IBD) in France, probably with the expectation he would be joining a Battalion of the Royal Sussex.  The IBD was a ‘melting pot’ and men were sent where they were most needed.  He was initially posted to the London Regiment (a TF Unit) but did not serve with them in the field before he was transferred, as suspected, to the 15th Bn Royal Irish Rifles.  This Battalion was in the 36th (Ulster) Division that had suffered tremendous loss on the Somme in 1916.  The war diary shows two drafts of 59 and 183 arrived on the 7th.

 

it appears he was wounded at Ypres (or was sick) and was posted to the Depot of the Rifles and then to another Home Service unit, he 19th Battalion which was formed from the Depot Companies of the 15th and 16th Bns.

See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/royal-irish-rifles/

 

From there he was transferred to ASC and posted to the Home Service Kent Force.  After his experience I suggest his medical category was down graded from A to C, that is fitness for Home Service only.

 

 

Yes if he was attached that would be shown in his statement of service.

 

It is a lot easier to interpret a record if we know who he is.

 

 

 

Ken

 

 

 

 

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Histoire

That is extremely helpful, thanks Ken. Interestingly the paperwork shows him ending the war with a different number then enlisted on (which makes sense) but there is no obvious record of him having received that number. I expect that is simply an omission in the records (?)

 

Re Clive. Sorry Clive, I was looking over the usernames hence I missed you. Thanks.

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kenf48

 

 

He would have received a different number each time he changed Regiment, so four digit TF number to Royal Sussex; four or six digit number to the London Regiment; probably five digit number to RIR and finally his ASC number, they usually had a prefix indicating his duty.

 It is unusual that none of his new numbers were noted when he transferred.

 

Medals were named to the first unit he served with in a theatre of war, and their issue administered by the records office of his final unit, so he would appear on the ASC Rolls.  Interim postings were not administratively necessary for the issue of medals.

 

Ken

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