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PaulC78

Pte Frank Reid

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PaulC78

Another man I'm struggling with in the pension records... Pte Frank Reid 46707 Royal Fusiliers, reported missing on 15 June 1917 but as far as I can tell no record of death and not listed on CWGC. I can find service papers for this man but only as 1860 Manchester Regiment with a discharge date of 23 June 1916. Medal roll for 46707 states that he served in France from 5 Sep 1916 until the date he went missing.

 

Fold3_Page_1.jpg.17730865ac6635e3c07dfef2ce6a43e1.jpg

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ss002d6252
ss002d6252

Death was also presumed so cwgc might have a slightly date if there's a range of time where may have occurred.

 

Craig

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charlie962

Casualty List has him as Missing, name spelt Read

 

ICRC have an enquiry from his mother, negative reply

C_G1_E_15_01_0072_0557_0.JPG.b22ba12ab692aacc760258b5c45872b4.JPG

 

Charlie

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ss002d6252

I can't see him on CWGC - certainly might be a contender for the IFCP.


Craig

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PaulC78

Thanks both, I hadn't seen either of those records. I still can't see him on CWGC or in the death index, have searched under REID, READ and REED.

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Bardess

I checked the overseas deaths for Rees, Thomas to Reilly, Thomas and he doesn't appear in the section for Reid

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PRC

It may not help track him down , but to firm up the surname spelling I took a look at the civil records.

 

The 15 year old Frank READ, a Colliery Labourer, (Surface), born Wigan, was recorded on the 1911 Census of England & Wales living at 22 Poolstock Lane, Worsley Mesnes, Pemberton, Lancashire. (Google tells me that address is a residential area of Wigan).

 

This was the household of his step-father Henry Hunter, (aged 38, a Coal Hewer at Face, born Coppiell,  Lancashire) and his mother CATHRINE Hunter, (aged 39, born Tralee, Ireland). Henry has three other step-sons, William READ, (21, born Warrington), and Henry READ, (19) and James READ, (17) – both born Wigan.

 

Henry and Cathrine are stated to have been married 12 years. This was the first census form filled in by the householder.

 

Going back to the 1901 Census of England and Wales those Step-sons  are shown with surname READ, (plus there is an older one, Thomas Henry READ, then aged 13 and born Dublin). Their mother’s first name is shown as KATE. They were then living at 15 Richmond Street, Pemberton. The 6 year old Frank READ is shown as born Pemberton.

 

If Henry and “Cathrine” \ Kate had been married 12 years in 1911, the most likely marriage as far as Lancashire is concerned was that of a Henry Hunter to a Catherine READ that was recorded in the Wigan Civil Registration District in Q1 of 1899.

 

Final check of the census records is for 1891, where the occupants of 15 Richmond Street, Pemberton are a William READ, (27, a Coal Miner, born Chorley, Lancs) and his wife KATE, (22, born Ireland) and their two children Thomas, (3, born Ireland), William, (1, born Warrington) and father Williams’ brother Henry, (30, a Coal Miner, born Chorley).

 

The birth of a Frank READ was registered with the Civil Authorities in the Wigan District in Q2 of 1896. There is no equivalent birth record for a Frank REED or REID.

 

On a different note, I too tried various queries on both the CWGC database directly and then via Geoff’s search engine, all to no avail. One of the last was looking at men who are recorded as died on the 14th June 1917 while serving with the 12th Battalion, Geoff’s brings up 9, all recorded on the Ypres Menin Gate Memorial.

 

Eight are shown on “Panel 6 and 8”. The ninth caught my eye – Private G/47682 S. G Forman is recorded on Addenda Panel 59. https://www.cwgc.org/search-for-war-dead/casualty/910257/

 

Looking at the Panel List document, which was prepared in 1930, the entry for Private Forman are manual amendments. I’ve attached a copy, (courtesy of the CWGC), as I may be mis-reading it, but looks to me that the entries adding him to the panel date from the 2000’s.

 

If I’m not mis-reading it then does it mean Private Forman was an earlier In from the Cold case? If so would be interesting to know how many were missing according to (a) the War Diary and (b) the official casualty list that includes Forman, (which might also show Read\ Reid) – there may be more missing names !

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Addendum Panel 59 S E Forman Royal Fusiliers sourced CWGC.JPG

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ss002d6252
1 hour ago, PRC said:

 

If I’m not mis-reading it then does it mean Private Forman was an earlier In from the Cold case? If so would be interesting to know how many were missing according to (a) the War Diary and (b) the official casualty list that includes Forman, (which might also show Read\ Reid) – there may be more missing names !

He's not listed on the IFCP site as one of theirs.


Craig

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charlie962
8 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

He's in the effect records

Craig,

How does that calc work out with 2 War Grats ? Was that because of his previous Manchesters service, even though there was a break ?

 

Charlie

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ss002d6252
1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

Craig,

How does that calc work out with 2 War Grats ? Was that because of his previous Manchesters service, even though there was a break ?

 

Charlie

Yes. The total of the figure relates to the total service, as per a normal gratuity, but the service has to be apportioned between the two periods.

 

This means that you need to have at least two dates to work with to try and figure out the periods - it's a less accurate calculation than normal though.

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charlie962

thanks Craig.

Charlie

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ss002d6252
5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

thanks Craig.

Charlie

No problem.

 

There's something odd about the gratuity payment though, it's giving a 'nonsense' result. 

 

We know August 1914 to 15 June 1917 could give a maximum 35 months gratuity. The £14 10s (net) paid was £17 10s (gross) - 37 months - however with the £3 gratuity added to get the gross figure the maximum could be 36 months (and clearly 37 > 36 and we're also constrained by a maximum period of 35 months).

 

What I suspect is that the £11 10 part already includes the service gratuity (one of the rare errors you see). This then gives us a total of £14 10s gross, giving 31 months.

 

If he served August 1914 to June 1916 then that accounts for 23 months. The gives us 8 months service to play with in the 13 months to his death. Counting back from his death would suggest re-enlist in November/December 1916.

 

Craig

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charlie962

I haven't looked at the manchester record but could he have been a higher rank ?

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ss002d6252
3 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I haven't looked at the manchester record but could he have been a higher rank ?


He's a private on the later records when the gratuity was paid so I'd expect that to be the rank used for the calculation.

 

I think we need someone with FMP to take a look when the later number was issued and see if that helps.

 

Craig

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charlie962

 

14 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

someone with FMP to take a look

Robert Penman   ??

 

Herbert Vernon 46708  joined 23/6/16,   (embarked to join 12th bn 15/9/16)

 

 

Edited by charlie962

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ss002d6252
1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

 

Robert Penman   ??

 

Herbert Vernon 46908  joined 23/6/16

Just to check - was that when he was issued this number (rather than changing regiments etc).

 

Craig

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charlie962

I've edited my error- his number was 46708. issued 23/6/16 which I note was the date Reid was discharged from Manchesters ?

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ss002d6252
5 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

I've edited my error- his number was 46708. issued 23/6/16 which I note was the date Reid was discharged from Manchesters ?

 

If it's a June 16 enlistment then we have 13 months gratuity accounted for to the point of death, in the second phase.


This would then leave 18 months in the first phase to June 1916 and suggests enlistment in Dec 1914 or Jan 15.

 

If 1860 Reid is the same man then there's something out somewhere as it suggests he's pre war, so serving from Aug 1914 onwards.

image.png

 

Craig

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charlie962

Ive now looked at Reid 1860 Manchester- a 4 yr Territorial enlistment April 1914, discharged 'Military Services Act 1916' 23/6/16. Only served 'Home'

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ss002d6252
10 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

Ive now looked at Reid 1860 Manchester- a 4 yr Territorial enlistment April 1914, discharged 'Military Services Act 1916' 23/6/16. Only served 'Home'


Interesting - I think that this was a technical discharge and immediate conscription to get around the home service/territorial issue. I don't therefore think was a break in service.

This means that the war gratuity should be around 35 month. This would be 12 @ £5 then 23 at 10s - 11 10s - so £16 10s in total.

 


Craig

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charlie962
2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

I think that this was a technical discharge and immediate conscription to get around the home service/territorial issue. I don't therefore think was a break in service.

Yes, that looks correct.

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PRC
On 12/02/2020 at 18:10, ss002d6252 said:

He's not listed on the IFCP site as one of theirs.

 

Thanks for checking. My logic was that if this soldier was to go forward as a missed commemoration it might help if it could be shown that there was an issue for casualties reported for this day. Additionally it might be that some of the leg-work has already been done in connection with Forman.

 

H.C. O'Neils Royal Fusiliers in the Great War recorded two officers killed, one officer mortally wounded, 4 officers wounded and 92 other ranks casualties., with no breakdown.  The initial attack became involved in hand to hand fighting - two platoons of the reserve compant sent forward as reinforcements "had to go through a heavy barrage; but with careful leading they came through without too heavy a loss."

(Sounds like a receipe for 'no known grave')

 

So wondering how many were initially recorded as missing in the War Diary.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

Edited by PRC
Typo

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charlie962

Same CasList "Royal Fusiliers" (interesting to note they are all 12th bn men and all were presumed killed in the end)

Missing:

Reid 46707 F Wigan - the subject of this thread

Savage 225057 A NorwoodSE  -actually C not A,  1st RF posted 12thRF prev 2685 WKentYeo. SDGW kia 15/6/17. CWGC Menin Gate

Yeoman 9511 WJ Wisbech -  12th RF SDGW kia 15/6/17.  CWGC Menin Gate

Wounded and Missing:

Peacock 2256 FM  - 12th RF  SDGW kia 15/6/17- ex 10th-   CWGC Menin Gate

 

Prev wounded now Wounded and Missing:

Baldock 9543 W - 12th RF - SDGW kia 14/6/17- CWGC Menin Gate

Cowper 48736 AB -12th Bn  d 18/6/17  - SDGW where?- CWGC Menin Gate

Dillistone 225098 CWH - 1st RF posted 12thRF prev E Surrey - SDGW kia 14/6/17, CWGC Menin Gate

Forman 47682 SG  -  12th RF - SDGW ??? -  CWGC14/6/17  addenda panel 59 Menin Gate (as mention above)

Wilsdon 65464 C  - 12th RF - SDGW kia 16/6/17 - CWGC Menin Gate 10/6/17

 

Wounded, some 20 names but I've not checked for Bns

 

 

 

Edited by charlie962

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charlie962

War Diary 12th Bn for 15th June 1917 reports 4 OR Kia, 5 OR Missing and 31 ORs wounded. Bn relieved that day.

Prev day 8 OR killed and 84 OR Wounded.

Edited by charlie962

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