Dangan Posted 11 February , 2020 Share Posted 11 February , 2020 I am trying to find out about Pte Jefferson Gann who died 1 Nov 1916 at Winall Camp, Winchester, Hampshire. I know he died of gunshot wounds but cannot find out any more. Why was he in England? Was his death an accident? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 11 February , 2020 Share Posted 11 February , 2020 From CWGC Private GANN, JEFFERSON. Service Number 5955. Died 01/11/1916 Aged 36 22nd Bn. London Regiment Husband of Mary Ann Gann, of 9, Lanfranc St., Westminster Bridge Rd., London. His death certificate may reveal more: Name:Jefferson Gann Death Age:35 Birth Date:abt 1881 Registration Date:Oct -Dec 1916 Registration Quarter:Oct-Nov-Dec Registration district:Winchester Inferred County:Hampshire Volume:2c Page:181 If for example it was a deliberate or accidental shooting in barracks then a inquest or enquiry would have been held & may feature in the local paper or soldiers local paper. His Soldiers Effects record show that a war gratuity was not admissable. This could mean that he had less than 12 months service & none of it overseas, or could it have been forfieted due to the nature of his death. By June 1916 both the first & second line battalions of the 22nd Londons were in France, and the 3rd Line or Reserve 3/22nd Londons were at Winnall Camp, staying there till Nov 1917 in their role as training men, reintroducing prev injured men back to the battalion strength & providing reinforcements for the two battalions in France. Depending on how he enlisted, in Nov 1916 he could have been a recent recruit, as men conscripted, or who had registered under the Derby Scheme were called up in batches according to their age & marital status, so for his age he could have been in Derby Scheme married group 40 & not mobilised until May 1916 onwards. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/ I believe that even when training in the UK battalions maintained a war diary, & although they do not often mention privates, the incident in which he died may be shown. The war diarises for the Western Front & Gallipoli are on ancestry, but I think those for a reserve battalion would be at the Nation Archives , Kew if they still exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangan Posted 11 February , 2020 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2020 Many thanks for your help, at least it gives me something else to research. I guess Jefferson enlisted quite early as regimental number was 5595. (Quite low) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 11 February , 2020 Share Posted 11 February , 2020 (edited) The WFA Pension card for his dependents gives cause of death as “G S Wounds rec ? on A/S”. No sign of a medal card so looks as if he did not serve abroad. So accident or suicide. Edited 11 February , 2020 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangan Posted 11 February , 2020 Author Share Posted 11 February , 2020 (edited) Hi, thanks for the info. So does that mean Gun Shot Wounds received on ?? What does A/S mean? Accident/Suicide? I would have thought it difficult to shoot yourself with a rifle. i know he joined up in 1914. Edited 11 February , 2020 by Dangan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 11 February , 2020 Share Posted 11 February , 2020 (edited) Pass. Active Service: could be certainly. As travers61 says the death certificate should help. You can order it from the GRO. PS Welcome to the forum Edited 11 February , 2020 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 8 hours ago, Mark1959 said: “G S Wounds rec ? on A/S” Gun shot wounds received on active service. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 The war gratuity was not forfeited due to suicide or accident - they didn't take that in to consideration. In most cases 'Not Admissible' would mean he had less than 6 months service (minimum qualifying period for a man who only served at home) but it could be for several other reasons. The service number needs to be checked to see when it was issued - although it appears low, when it's a service battalion or a territorial battalion then late15-early16 could readily fit. War diaries were not required for battalions on home service so, short of something unusual, you'll not find one for them. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, ss002d6252 said: The war gratuity was not forfeited due to suicide or accident - they didn't take that in to consideration. In most cases 'Not Admissible' would mean he had less than 6 months service (minimum qualifying period for a man who only served at home) but it could be for several other reasons. The service number needs to be checked to see when it was issued - although it appears low, when it's a service battalion or a territorial battalion then late15-early16 could readily fit. War diaries were not required for battalions on home service so, short of something unusual, you'll not find one for them. Craig Thank you for confirming all this, always happy to be corrected, its a learning curve ! Does any one on the forum know wether the shooting would have caused an army enquiry, civilian inquest or both & where records may be for any army enquiry. Edited 12 February , 2020 by travers61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, Dangan said: Many thanks for your help, at least it gives me something else to research. I guess Jefferson enlisted quite early as regimental number was 5595. (Quite low) This link says that the 22nd Londons allocated number 5955 between 24th July 1916 & 12 October 1916. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/01/22nd-county-of-london-battalion-london.html The 22nd Londons were using a sequence that had started at 001 when in 1908 they were formed from the 3rd Volunteer Battalion Royal West Surrey (Queens ) Regiment at the start of the TF. Edited 12 February , 2020 by travers61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 32 minutes ago, travers61 said: Does any one on the forum know wether the shooting would have caused an army enquiry, civilian inquest or both & where records may be for any army enquiry. There'd be both in my experience - I know of one of the 6th DLI who died in camp at Felling Camp, Gateshead - he was accidentally shot. There was both an army inquiry and a coroner's inquest. If the army records aren't in the service record then you're likely out of luck. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travers61 Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 (edited) Likewise with the original docs of the civilian inquest, where a lot were pulped during the WW2 wastepaper drive, often leaving only the Hampshire newspapers reporting or that in any newspaper near the soldiers home as the only accessable record. May be worth a look/email to Hampshire Archives to see if they have it, as its no longer subject to the 100 year rule. Having said all of this I'd see what the death cert says first. Edited 12 February , 2020 by travers61 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 Hi Dangan, Welcome to the forum. 11 hours ago, ss002d6252 said: The war gratuity was not forfeited due to suicide or accident - they didn't take that in to consideration. In most cases 'Not Admissible' would mean he had less than 6 months service (minimum qualifying period for a man who only served at home) but it could be for several other reasons. The service number needs to be checked to see when it was issued On 11/02/2020 at 17:58, travers61 said: Private GANN, JEFFERSON. Service Number 5955 Died 01/11/1916 2 hours ago, travers61 said: This link says that the 22nd Londons allocated number 5955 between 24th July 1916 & 12 October 1916. https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/01/22nd-county-of-london-battalion-london.html There are some surviving service papers for a 5957 Tubb (Findmypast link) which show that he (was previously a reservist, and who sunsequently) served 'at home' (initially) with the 3/22 London Regiment wef 26.7.1916. It seems then that Jefferson didn't have enough time 'under his belt' for a War Gratuity payment to be made. My understanding is that for CWGC commemoration (and for a successful pension claim), a death had to be directly caused by, or attributable to war service. That would seem to rule out some kind of deliberate self inflicted, wilful wounding resulting in death. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 27 minutes ago, clk said: My understanding is that for CWGC commemoration (and for a successful pension claim), a death had to be directly caused by, or attributable to war service. If they died whilst in service then the reason wasn't relevant for the CWGC not did it stop a pension where it was suicide (IFCP have a man I submitted going through now committed suicide and the dependant pension was paid). Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clk Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 Hi Craig, 54 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: If they died whilst in service then the reason wasn't relevant for the CWGC not did it stop a pension where it was suicide (IFCP have a man I submitted going through now committed suicide and the dependant pension was paid). Thank you for your correction to my understanding. Every day, a learning day as they say ! I guess then that in the absence of other evidence, Dangen can't be sure that Jefferson died from some kind of accidental wounding. Regards Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 12 February , 2020 Share Posted 12 February , 2020 1 hour ago, clk said: Hi Craig, Thank you for your correction to my understanding. Every day, a learning day as they say ! I guess then that in the absence of other evidence, Dangen can't be sure that Jefferson died from some kind of accidental wounding. Regards Chris Yes. Without something else it doesn't seem to be sufficient on what we have to fully pin down what happened. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangan Posted 13 February , 2020 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2020 Hi Can anyone shed a light on this uniform please. Many thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangan Posted 13 February , 2020 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2020 This is all very interesting, thank you. I’ve learnt more in the last 24 hours than in years of trawling through records. I know through family that there was an inquest and therefore I am checking Hampshire newspaper records. Dani Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 13 February , 2020 Share Posted 13 February , 2020 (edited) He is a soldier of a British Hussar cavalry of the line regiment. Unfortunately the uniform was quite generic and without proper colour rendering it’s difficult to say precisely which regiment and generally insignia was not used on the pill box cap. Collar badges were eventually introduced but this photo predates their adoption. Edited 13 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangan Posted 13 February , 2020 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2020 Many thanks. This is a mystery as I know he served in 22nd London Regiment, but can’t work out why the Hussar uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 13 February , 2020 Share Posted 13 February , 2020 The pill-box cap places the photo in the late Victorian or Edwardian period. He may have served in a Hussar (or Yeomanry) Regiment and re-enlisted in 22/Londons after the outbreak of war. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 13 February , 2020 Share Posted 13 February , 2020 (edited) Perhaps he served in a Hussar regiment before joining 22nd (County of London) battalion (Queen's) London Regiment? I see Ron beat me to it... Edited 13 February , 2020 by squirrel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangan Posted 13 February , 2020 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2020 Thank you. i have now been informed that a colour/coloured photo exists and that the uniform has been coloured dark blue (navy) or black Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RICH G Posted 13 February , 2020 Share Posted 13 February , 2020 Hi Can't help on the uniform but may be able to help on the 22nd London side, What is his name? Rich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dangan Posted 13 February , 2020 Author Share Posted 13 February , 2020 Jefferson Gann Service number 5525 died 1st Nov 1916 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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