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Dangan

Jefferson Gann - 22 Btn London Regiment

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Dangan

I am trying to find out about Pte Jefferson Gann who died 1 Nov 1916 at Winall Camp, Winchester, Hampshire.

 

I know he died of gunshot wounds but cannot find out any more. Why was he in England?

Was his death an accident?

 

 

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travers61

From CWGC

Private GANN, JEFFERSON.    Service Number 5955.    Died 01/11/1916

Aged 36

22nd Bn.  London Regiment

Husband of Mary Ann Gann, of 9, Lanfranc St., Westminster Bridge Rd., London.

 

His death certificate may reveal more:

Name:Jefferson Gann

Death Age:35

Birth Date:abt 1881

Registration Date:Oct -Dec 1916
Registration Quarter:Oct-Nov-Dec

Registration district:Winchester

Inferred County:Hampshire

Volume:2c

Page:181

 

If for example it was a deliberate or accidental shooting in barracks then a inquest or enquiry would have been held & may feature in the local paper or soldiers local paper.

 

His Soldiers Effects record show that a war gratuity was not admissable. This could mean that he had less than 12 months service & none of it overseas, or could it have been forfieted due to the nature of his death.

 

By June 1916 both the first & second line battalions of the 22nd Londons were in France, and the 3rd Line or Reserve 3/22nd Londons were at Winnall Camp, staying there till Nov 1917 in their role as training men, reintroducing prev injured men back to the battalion strength & providing reinforcements for the two battalions in France.

 

Depending on how he enlisted, in Nov 1916 he could have been a recent recruit, as men conscripted, or who had registered under the Derby Scheme were called up in batches according to their age & marital status, so for his age he could have been in Derby Scheme married group 40 & not mobilised until May 1916 onwards.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/enlisting-into-the-army/the-group-scheme-derby-scheme/

 

I believe that even when training in the UK battalions maintained a war diary, & although they do not often mention privates, the incident in which he died may be shown. The war diarises for the Western Front & Gallipoli are on ancestry, but I think those for a reserve battalion would be at the Nation Archives , Kew if they still exist.

 

 

 

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Dangan

Many thanks for your help, at least it gives me something else to research. I guess Jefferson enlisted quite early as regimental number was 5595. (Quite low) 

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Mark1959

The WFA Pension card for his dependents gives cause of death as “G S Wounds rec ? on A/S”.

No sign of a medal card so looks as if he did not serve abroad. So accident or suicide. 

Edited by Mark1959

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Dangan

Hi, thanks for the info. So does that mean Gun Shot Wounds received on ?? What does A/S mean? Accident/Suicide?

I would have thought it difficult to shoot yourself with a rifle.

 

i know he joined up in 1914. 

Edited by Dangan

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Mark1959

Pass. Active Service: could be certainly. As travers61 says the death certificate should help. You can order it from the GRO. 
PS Welcome to the forum

Edited by Mark1959

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ss002d6252
8 hours ago, Mark1959 said:

“G S Wounds rec ? on A/S”

Gun shot wounds received on active service.

 

Craig

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ss002d6252

The war gratuity was not forfeited due to suicide or accident - they didn't take that in to consideration.

 

In most cases 'Not Admissible' would mean he had less than 6 months service (minimum qualifying period for a man who only served at home) but it could be for several other reasons. The service number needs to be checked to see when it was issued - although it appears low, when it's a service battalion or a territorial battalion then late15-early16  could readily fit.

 

War diaries were not required for battalions on home service so, short of something unusual, you'll not find one for them.

 

Craig

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travers61
8 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The war gratuity was not forfeited due to suicide or accident - they didn't take that in to consideration.

 

In most cases 'Not Admissible' would mean he had less than 6 months service (minimum qualifying period for a man who only served at home) but it could be for several other reasons. The service number needs to be checked to see when it was issued - although it appears low, when it's a service battalion or a territorial battalion then late15-early16  could readily fit.

 

War diaries were not required for battalions on home service so, short of something unusual, you'll not find one for them.

 

Craig

 

Thank you for confirming all this, always happy to be corrected, its a learning curve !

 

Does any one on the forum know wether the shooting would have caused an army enquiry, civilian inquest or both & where records may be for any army enquiry.

Edited by travers61

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travers61
21 hours ago, Dangan said:

Many thanks for your help, at least it gives me something else to research. I guess Jefferson enlisted quite early as regimental number was 5595. (Quite low) 

 

This link says that the 22nd Londons allocated number 5955 between 24th July 1916 & 12 October 1916.

 

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/01/22nd-county-of-london-battalion-london.html

 

The 22nd Londons were using a sequence that had started at 001 when in 1908 they were formed from the 3rd Volunteer Battalion Royal West Surrey (Queens ) Regiment at the start of the TF.

Edited by travers61

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ss002d6252
32 minutes ago, travers61 said:

Does any one on the forum know wether the shooting would have caused an army enquiry, civilian inquest or both & where records may be for any army enquiry.

There'd be both in my experience - I know of one of the 6th DLI who died in camp at Felling Camp, Gateshead - he was accidentally shot. There was both an army inquiry and a coroner's inquest.

 

If the army records aren't in the service record then you're likely out of luck.

Craig

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travers61

Likewise with the original docs of the civilian inquest, where a lot were pulped during the WW2 wastepaper drive, often leaving only the Hampshire newspapers reporting or that in any newspaper near the soldiers home as the only accessable record.  May be worth a look/email to Hampshire Archives to see if they have it, as its no longer subject to the 100 year rule.

 

Having said all of this I'd see what the death cert says first.

Edited by travers61

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clk

Hi Dangan,

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

11 hours ago, ss002d6252 said:

The war gratuity was not forfeited due to suicide or accident - they didn't take that in to consideration.

 

In most cases 'Not Admissible' would mean he had less than 6 months service (minimum qualifying period for a man who only served at home) but it could be for several other reasons. The service number needs to be checked to see when it was issued

 

On 11/02/2020 at 17:58, travers61 said:

Private GANN, JEFFERSON.    Service Number 5955   Died 01/11/1916

 

2 hours ago, travers61 said:

This link says that the 22nd Londons allocated number 5955 between 24th July 1916 & 12 October 1916.

 

https://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/01/22nd-county-of-london-battalion-london.html

 

There are some surviving service papers for a 5957 Tubb (Findmypast link) which show that he (was previously a reservist, and who sunsequently) served 'at home' (initially) with the 3/22 London Regiment wef 26.7.1916. It seems then that Jefferson didn't have enough time 'under his belt' for a War Gratuity payment to be made.

 

My understanding is that for CWGC commemoration (and for a successful pension claim), a death had to be directly caused by, or attributable to war service. That would seem to rule out some kind of deliberate self inflicted, wilful wounding resulting in death.

 

Regards

Chris

 

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ss002d6252
27 minutes ago, clk said:

 

My understanding is that for CWGC commemoration (and for a successful pension claim), a death had to be directly caused by, or attributable to war service.

 

If they died whilst in service then the reason wasn't relevant for the CWGC not did it stop a pension where it was suicide (IFCP have a man I submitted going through now committed suicide and the dependant pension was paid).


Craig

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clk

Hi Craig,

 

54 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

If they died whilst in service then the reason wasn't relevant for the CWGC not did it stop a pension where it was suicide (IFCP have a man I submitted going through now committed suicide and the dependant pension was paid).

 

Thank you for your correction to my understanding. Every day, a learning day as they say ! I guess then that in the absence of other evidence, Dangen can't be sure that Jefferson died from some kind of accidental wounding.

 

Regards

Chris

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ss002d6252
1 hour ago, clk said:

Hi Craig,

 

 

Thank you for your correction to my understanding. Every day, a learning day as they say ! I guess then that in the absence of other evidence, Dangen can't be sure that Jefferson died from some kind of accidental wounding.

 

Regards

Chris

Yes. Without something else it doesn't seem to be sufficient on what we have to fully pin down what happened.

 

Craig

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Dangan

This is all very interesting, thank you. I’ve learnt more in the last 24 hours than in years of trawling through records.


I know through family that there was an inquest and therefore I am checking Hampshire newspaper records. 
 

Dani

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Dangan

I apologise for starting the uniform topic but it started off as two separate queries.

 

As I discovered that the uniform was likely to have been either Victorian or Edwardian I realise that it is not something for this forum.

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Dangan

Hi

 

I am now in possession of a copy of Jefferson Gann death certificate, attached, the writing isn’t very clear but I think it says

”Haemorrhage and shock cor...... on a gun shot wound in the chest but how caused not sufficient evidence to show”

 

 

image.jpg

image.jpg

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Bardess

Looks like consequent to me. He is buried in a London cemetery so not on active service?

 

Incidentally I would think that it may either be self inflicted/accident/murder?

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ss002d6252
38 minutes ago, Bardess said:

Looks like consequent to me. He is buried in a London cemetery so not on active service?

 

Incidentally I would think that it may either be self inflicted/accident/murder?

Active service in this instance just means whilst he was serving in the army.

 

Craig

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Dangan

I doubt if I will ever get to the bottom of it.

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travers61

Hi Dangan,

 

Sorry the cert was not more specific, but on the part of the certificate that says who the informant was does it say "certificate from coroners inquest 3rd (? November 1916) ?  This would tally with what Craig said in post 11, and just a couple of days after the death.  The coroner was duty bound to try & get whatever evidence there was, even if he eventually decided he could not be sure of the cause. Sadly suicide was legally a crime then, so I assume he would not record it as such unless he was certain.

 

Looking at the Hants RO website, they hold records for one of the Winchester City Coroners, Henry White (died 1924) & as Winnall Down is only a mile or so from the City, this may help. However as the death is shown in Easton Parish, which seems not to have been part of Winchester till 1974, it may have been covered by the Mid Hants coroner & Hants RO don't hold WW1 era records for that coroners district. Local Winchester newspapers seem also to be at the record office & may have reported it.

Probably worth a quick enquiry to ask if they charge etc, and sometimes if its a WW1 soldier who died in service in unknown circumstances, you are a relation & you have the cert, you may get a quick look up from a kind archivist or volunteer there in the newspapers ?

https://calm.hants.gov.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=W%2fD%2f5&pos=6

https://calm.hants.gov.uk/Record.aspx?src=CalmView.Catalog&id=91119&pos=1

 

Nothing showing for this incident in 1916 in the British Newpaper Archive, index, but what seems to be the local Winchester paper, the Hants Chronicle is only on there up to 1909 & the Salisbury & Winchester Journal to 1912.

 

This is what happens in the current law about inquests & I can only assume it was very similar in 1916:

A coroner must hold an inquest if the cause of death is still unknown, or if the person possibly died a violent or unnatural death or died in prison or police custody

You cannot register the death until after the inquest. The coroner is responsible for sending the relevant paperwork to the registrar.  The death cannot be registered until after the inquest, but the coroner can give you an interim death certificate to prove the person is dead. When the inquest is over the coroner will tell the registrar what to put in the register.

https://www.gov.uk/after-a-death/when-a-death-is-reported-to-a-coroner 

Edited by travers61

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Dangan

Hi Travers61

yes I believe it says “certificate received from Henry White Coroner for Hants Inquest held 3rd November 1916”

 

Next step, I will try to access newspapers/records  at Hants and Mid-Hants.

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