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Remembered Today:

1914-1915 star


ZIL

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I AM CURRENTLY RESEARCHING A SOLDIER WHOSE BATTALION LANDED IN FRANCE. 9.11.15.THE FIRST TIME THEY WERE IN ACTION WAS AT MARICOURT FRANCE 6.1.16.

HIS MIC SHOWS THE WAR AND VICTORY MEDALS.IS HE ENTITLED TO THE 14-15 STAR?

regards ZIL

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If he landed in France prior to the 31st December, 1915, then he should be entitled to a 1914-15 Star. However, was he a later reinforcement - is date of entry into a theatre of war shown on the MIC? Sometimes, you can find that a man can have 2 MICs covering their medal issues.
What are the name and details of the man you are researching?


Sepoy

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Thanks Sepoy,

no theatre of war on mic.Private 32640 John Warburton 20TH battalion kings Liverpool .No other details available...have the war diaries which give the date on entry but no confirmation that he was with the battalion.The war medal shows him as 32641 in the Kings Liverpool but all searches I have done only come up with the 32640...that is what is on the mic.

regards. Zil

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I have a quick look but can only find a Medal Index Card and Medal Roll for 32640 Corporal John Warburton,  Liverpool Regiment, later Machine Gun Corps numbered 142190, which show that he just receiving a British War Medal and Victory Medal. I cannot see any trace of a 1914 - 15 Star being issued.
However, he did receive the Military Medal as 32641 Private J Warburton, 20th Battalion, Liverpool Regiment. This award was published in the London Gazette dated 2nd April, 1918.
The schedule number, shown on the MM card, indicates that this gazette was the third and final major Cambrai gazette, but also contained some awards for Ypres. It also covered awards for Egypt (3rd Battle of Gaza) Palestine; and some awards for East Africa and Mesopotamia.
The 20th (Service) Battalion, King's Liverpool Regiment (4th City) only served in France which narrows the above down a bit.
Hope this helps.
Sepoy

(Please note that only the MIC for the pair and the MM card show up on the National Archives site which has the most complete set of MICs. I have also checked the MICs and Medal Rolls on Ancestry. MM card also checked on Findmypast.)

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Short of finding is service papers you have to assume he wasn't entitled to a star

Edited by Coldstreamer
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Thanks again Sepoy,

I was aware of the MM but thought it might confuse the issue.Your searches mirror mine with the same result which is reassuring.I feel it boils down to when did 32640 Warburton enter France? From a couple of searches on numbers it may well be that it was after 31.12.15.but nothing conclusive. I will continue and report back anything positive.

Again thank you for your contribution.....Regards Zil

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The enlistment date for 32640 was 28/30 October 1915, therefore he could not have been on the strength of an active service Battalion on 9 November 1915.

The Silver War Badge Roll lists Cecil Wm Clark as 32640 King’s Liverpool, enlistment date 29 October 1915.

 

Training took twelve weeks, therefore the earliest 32640/1 could have gone overseas was January 22 1916.  

 

32644 (14 Bn) had 1 yr and 3 months service in theatre when admitted to 66 FA on 23/10/1917, two years total service.

 

We cannot be certain when he went to France but we can be certain he had no entitlement to the 14-15 Star based on his enlistment date.

 

Looking at the war diary, the 20th Bn first few months in France were fairly quiet, after the 1st July and the losses in the first week 51 reinforcement arrived on the 11th.

 

Ken

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Thanks Ken...Apologies for a late reply.I have the MIC for 32640 Warburton showing him a Corporal in the Liverpool’s and also in the MGC 142190.A search for 32641 John Warburton comes up zero but a search for 32641 Warburton comes up with him being awarded the MM. In the 20TH Liverpool’s..which is the number on the medal the family has.The only other medal the family has is the WM shown to Warburton Corporal in the Liverpool’s.The number cannot be read as the medal is offset in a frame.,but the Corporal ties in with the MIC.There is no theatre of war shown.

Clarke is shown in Liverpool Depot.
I have tried to search for his number to show issue and date sequence but obviously have not searched where you have.Do or can you search for 32641 to show similar to 32640.Logically. 41 comes after 40 therefore a similar sequence.

The other confusing detail is that Warburton was given the silver cap badge commissioned by Lord Derby...according to my research this was only given to recruits who joined the Liverpool’s 17-20TH battalions prior to October 16th 1914.

i do stand corrected on any of these issues &  appreciate all contributions.

regards, Zil

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On 08/02/2020 at 14:18, ZIL said:

Clarke is shown in Liverpool Depot.

 

Yes I know, that is because men who had been hospitalised in the U.K.  were discharged from the Depot Battalion.  He was on active service with with the 19th/1st and 13th Bns. He is only relevant because the SWB give the date of attestation, caution is needed in late 1915 as the SWB Records show when a Derby Scheme man attested and was placed on the Army Reserve, not necessarily his call up date.  However from other records I 'm confident that was his call up date.

Both he and Pte. Warburton were probably posted to one of the Reserve Battalions on enlistment.

 

On 08/02/2020 at 14:18, ZIL said:

There is no theatre of war shown.

 

The theatre of war is not generally shown on other ranks medal index cards if there was not entitlement to the Star.  Pte Warburton is on the MGC Rolls, unfortunately these are generally not very good on previous units.  The 'War Medals' were named to the first unit served and their issue administered by the last unit, who would have the address on demob or next of kin. 

Gallantry medals were named to the unit he was serving in when the award was made.  The MGC has, apparently made a clerical error and shown him as 32640.  This error could have been corrected when the medals were received but apparently he didn't bother.

 

The 20th (King's) Liverpool was disbanded in France in February 1918 (see LLT) when the Army was reorganised and the number of Battalions in a Division were reduced from twelve to nine https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/battles/the-british-armys-manpower-crisis-of-1918/

 

Pte Warburton would have gone to the IBD and from there  been posted to the MGC in a group of men from the King's Liverpool starting at 142168 and ending at 142194 (so around thirty) on the 20 March 1918.  Unfortunately it's very difficult to track MGC men once they were posted to active service Battalions from the MGC Base Depot at Camiers.

 

On 08/02/2020 at 14:18, ZIL said:

The other confusing detail is that Warburton was given the silver cap badge commissioned by Lord Derby...according to my research this was only given to recruits who joined the Liverpool’s 17-20TH battalions prior to October 16th 1914.

 

I can think of a dozen reasons as to how he might have come by that badge other than enlistment in 1914.

 

I don't know if you have access to FMP but that accommodates wildcard searches better than Ancestry. You can search on 326** but that returns too many variables so you just run through 3264? then 5?/3? etc

 

Ken

 

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Ken....Thank you is inadequate....a most comprehensive and complete explanation...I feel I can now draw this to a conclusion .Being retired ex services I completely agree regarding the cap badge.

kindest regards...Zil

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