"2nd Battalion Rifle Brigade

[jeremy penfold]

Andy, Mike - thanks very much for your very interesting responses, I'd been trying to work out what the medical terms referred to.

[jeremy penfold]

There is a photograph widely available entitled 'All that is left of them' apparently showing those members of 2nd batt Rifle Brigade who survived the war.

A couple of names are given on the accompanying text, has anyone identified the remaining men ? 

[bluecard]

Was trying to work out if one of them in the group photo was my Grandfather (my profile pic) Ernest Rosser 3161, as he had enlisted before the war, and was stationed at Fort William, Calcutta, for the 1911 census. He had started the Great War as a Corporal with the 2nd Btn, and finished the war as Company Sergeant Major. He was awarded 4 wound stripes, and at least returned once to the UK, for a back wound, and was listed as being in the 8th Btn, for 1 of his wound stripes. As it was a mixed result for the family, as my Grandfather & 1 brother survived, yet their younger brother and 2 brothers-in-law were killed, it was never talked about.

[stiletto_33853]

Alldridge was the QM for the 2nd RB for most off the war. He leaves copious notes of times in battle, on outpost, in trenches, line of march and trains in bivouac, camp or billets. Fatalities, casualties etc, stating that 1 officer (Alldridge) and 14 other ranks of the original battalion returned home with the battalion HQ after the war, the only originals.

 

Andy

 

[jeremy penfold]

Thats really interesting, are their papers by Aldridge available on line anywhere ? 

[stiletto_33853]

No Jeremy, nowhere online.

There is an article written by him in one of the Rifle Brigade Chronicles but fairly basic. His papers are in The Imperial War Museum and officers papers at Kew. See attached which is a basic break down. Now to that number add those that died from wounds either in France or in the UK which Alldridge would not have been aware of at the time. I did place the full breakdown on a thread on this forum some time ago, can't seem to find it presently.

 

Andy

[stiletto_33853]

A few of his papers, and their are quite a lot of them

[jeremy penfold]

Andy,

that's fascinating stuff, thanks for sharing.

Jeremy 

[bluecard]

Thanks for the info Andy, much appreciated.

The War diaries are interesting reading, with the 2nd Btn using what looks like pages from a notebook for the best part of a year, before they switch to the official printed sheets.

Cheers

Paul

[MartyG]

A most fascinating thread which I came across just now as I intended to post on “In Memoriam” this Tuesday regarding S/25393 Rifleman Carlo Gatty, 2nd Battalion, whose name came up when I input my surname on CWGC a while back.

I have no idea whatsoever whether I am in any way directly related to Carlo and I could find next to nothing about him on Ancestry at the time. Perhaps, given his Christian name, his surname was “Anglicised” at some time from Gatti to Gatty? No way to know.

There is something about Carlo though and I have not forgotten him, despite not knowing anything about him or if he even is, indeed, my relation. What struck me most, and which I find very sad, is that he appears to have had no family, not in this country anyway, His medals appear to have been disposed of, presumably scrapped, and it seems he died intestate, but I confess that I cannot read or interpret everything that is noted in the Remarks column of the MIC. It cannot, however, be family returning the medals as the Roll clearly says he had no next of kin.

It is noticeable too that there is no record of his financial effects being authorised to anyone, unlike the other entries.

(images courtesy of Ancestry):

 

He died on 16 August 1917 and I suspect, but do not know, of course, that he may have been in D Company and that he was one of the “very heavy casualties” suffered by the Company after its mopping up operation, recorded in the Battalion diary for that day. It’s flimsy, illogical and, perhaps, emotional reasoning on my part, really, and based solely on that Company’s heavy casualties; it’s not as if the other Companies did not lose men too! He must, however, surely be among the 50 listed as missing that day and I presume he was never found.

(images courtesy of National Archives):

I hoped to see his name written down in the snapshot of Major Alldridge’s papers above but, again, no luck, although Andy advises there are a lot more of them!

I fear his death went unmourned, unnoticed even except by his comrades (and not too many of them may have survived themselves given Jeremy’s “All That Is Left Of Them” photo), but that is supposition only on my part. I just have an overwhelming feeling of sadness about Carlo, whether or not he is a relation. It’s such a shame that he appeared to have had no one. He is a mystery…

Martin

[charlie962]

1 hour ago, MartyG said:

about Carlo,

There is an Italian, Carlo Gatty, on 1911 London census, in some sort of lodgings with little detail?

[MartyG]

36 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

There is an Italian, Carlo Gatty, on 1911 London census, in some sort of lodgings with little detail?

Well done for finding that Charlie, could very well be him, thanks. How many Carlo Gattys could there be?

I never got as far as the Census with Carlo, or if I did search then clearly I failed dismally. Most of the records I looked for at the time were concentrated mainly on those I knew for certain were my relatives. I could certainly find no service records for him, although they were likely among those lost.

I don’t know of any Italian connection in my family, albeit there may be something in the distant past, but this man sticks with me. If he still had family in Italy, I wonder if they ever knew what happened to him. 

Edited 14 August , 2022 by MartyG

[jeremy penfold]

According to a record that's on Ancestry he may be of Maltese rather than Italian origin. There's no original document associated with the record, but here is a copy. 

[MartyG]

2 hours ago, jeremy penfold said:

According to a record that's on Ancestry he may be of Maltese rather than Italian origin. There's no original document associated with the record, but here is a copy. 

Very interesting indeed. Perhaps then not the same Carlo as on the 1911 Census, which I presume says “Italian” in the penultimate column, unless he was born in Malta to Italian parents? Could he have said he was from Malta, as part of the Empire, so he could join the British forces more easily? Sorry, I don’t know if an Italian national would have been allowed to enlist.

Spooky that he lived in Woolwich - I live and grew up in Eltham, very close by, as did my grandfather and father, although grandad was a Camberwell man by birth and grew up in Walworth. I was born in Woolwich, would you believe, and my grandad would have spent a lot of time there during his time with the Territorial RA.

Thank you for this - the Woolwich connection has made me feel even closer to him in a way.

[jeremy penfold]

On 01/03/2020 at 09:07, MBrockway said:

Andy,

How were the companies referenced after the eight to four mergers?

 

Was it as simple as ...

Old A + Old B = New A

Old C + Old D = New B

Old E + Old F = New C

Old G + Old H = New D

 

In other words, after the restructuring, Samuels could not have been in new 'B' Coy as he's not on the Bridgeman list of old coys 'C' & 'D', but could have been in any of the other three.

 

Mark

Just as an update to this thread, I've just been given my Uncles prayer book, which contains an inscription that in March 1909 he was in Rawalpindi as part of Company G. So making the assumption that he stayed in that company until 1914, I presume he would then have been in the new Company D? 

Jeremy