KRRC Cap Badge Enquiry

[reevo6825]

Hi all

 

I'm a relatively new member. I'm helping my father-in-law research his family tree and his grandfather and great uncle both served with the 12th Battalion King's Royal Rifle Corps.

 

Private R/11832 James PAIN served with the 12th Battalion from 17/04/1915 until about Oct 1917 when he was wounded. When he returned to the front he was redeployed with the 1st Battalion KRRC until he was killed in action in The Battle of Cambrai, France on 08/10/1918.

 

His brother, Private R-25859 Arthur PAIN, served the whole war in the 12th Battalion, Kings Royal Rifle Corps.

 

I have the medals and cap badges for both men and would like to make up a framed display for my father-in-law. On eBay I have seen KRRC cap badges selling with a red patch behind them.

 

Can anyone tell me what the patches denote? If it's the Battalions' colour, what colours would the 1st and 12th have worn?

 

Thank you in advance.

 

Regards
 

Paul Reeves 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Hello Paul, the red Cloth patch behind the KRRC cap badge was in normal circumstances worn by all battalions of the regiment and commemorated the fact that, unlike their fellow Rifle Regiment, the former 95th of Foot, Rifle Brigade, they had begun their life as a scarlet clad unit, the 60th (Royal American) Regiment of Foot.

Edited 1 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[reevo6825]

Thank you very much, appreciate the prompt & helpful reply.

 

Regards

 

Paul

[reevo6825]

On 01/02/2020 at 01:30, FROGSMILE said:

Hello Paul, the red Cloth patch behind the KRRC cap badge was in normal circumstances worn by all battalions of the regiment and commemorated the fact that, unlike their fellow Rifle Regiment, the former 95th of Foot, Rifle Brigade, they had begun their life as a scarlet clad unit, the 60th (Royal American) Regiment of Foot.

Frogsmile

I should have asked, following on from that explanation, what badge would the KRRC have worn to show which battalion they belonged to?

Regards

paul

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, reevo6825 said:

Frogsmile

I should have asked, following on from that explanation, what badge would the KRRC have worn to show which battalion they belonged to?

Regards

paul

 

 

The vast majority of the battalions, the four regulars, and the war raised “service battalions” (e.g. 21st Bn (Yeoman Rifles)) wore the standard, regimental badge of the WW1 era (there were a few design changes over the regiment’s existence), which I’ve enclosed.  It is as per your original post.
 

There were no Territorial Force battalions directly part of the regiment, but there were battalions of the London Regiment, wearing their own badges, that were affiliated to the KRRC and who for a period had been Volunteer Battalions of it (1883–1908).
 

There was also a cadet unit that wore their own special badge, the cadet battalion of the Church Lads Brigade affiliated unit, 16th Bn KRRC.  
 

Even shoulder titles, traditionally used to differentiate battalions, did not vary in the KRRC, who wore the simple KRR for all, initially in brass, but later in woven thread on cloth.
 

The officers of most (but not all) battalions wore an entirely different badge of their own pattern, based on a scarlet cord boss.  This style of badge had long been associated with rifle regiments.  The officers did not generally wear collar badges, apart from some battalions of the London Regiment and a few Service units.

 

NB.  The precise pattern officers’ cap shown is from WW2, but the badge was the same.

 

Edited 7 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[reevo6825]

On 27/01/2020 at 13:48, Jraynham said:

For some reason replying to your update quotes an unrelated message from Jraynham?

thank you for the detailed further reply. I assume therefore there were no coloured patches or badges used to differentiate between battalions. 
 

thank you again :-)

 

[FROGSMILE]

16 hours ago, reevo6825 said:

thank you for the detailed further reply. I assume therefore there were no coloured patches or badges used to differentiate between battalions. 
 

thank you again :-)

 

Yes, there were indeed coloured patches as indicators of the units position within a Brigade, and some (but not all) might also have worn Divisional badges too.  This is a highly specialised area and will require you to go into more detailed research.  A survey was carried out by the embryo, precursor to the Imperial War Museum in 1919 by writing to commanding officers with a questionnaire.  There are various, illustrated publications available that have used the data to put information about units in the public domain, including one by Mike Chappell. There are also threads on the subject within this forum.

Edited 8 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

According to The Badges of Kitchener's Army (David Bilton, Pen & Sword, 2018), the 12th KKRC wore a black equilateral triangle, point uppermost, above three horizontal black bars, each 1" x 1/4". The base of the triangle was the same length as the bars. These were on the upper arm.

[reevo6825]

Thank you for the steer

Brilliant, my research subjects were 1st and 12th Bttn

 

[Steven Broomfield]

23 minutes ago, reevo6825 said:

Thank you for the steer

Brilliant, my research subjects were 1st and 12th Bttn

 

 

Unfortunately I have no idea on the 1st Battalion. 99th Brigade, 2nd Division, if that's any help.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

According to The Badges of Kitchener's Army (David Bilton, Pen & Sword, 2018), the 12th KKRC wore a black equilateral triangle, point uppermost, above three horizontal black bars, each 1" x 1/4". The base of the triangle was the same length as the bars. These were on the upper arm.

There’s a picture of the 12th Bn badge at this link (for OP - it’s worth searching within the forum): 

There’s also a new reference book, apparently, but at £40 it seems expensive: http://www.militarymode.co.uk/british-battle-insignia-of-wwi-by-kevin-beckhurst/

Edited 7 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[reevo6825]

Thanks for the tip. It sounds like a brilliant reference book but I can’t actually afford the £40 :-(

[FROGSMILE]

9 minutes ago, reevo6825 said:

Thanks for the tip. It sounds like a brilliant reference book but I can’t actually afford the £40 :-(

Apparently the book by David Bilton, Pen & Sword, 2018 is much better, and a lot cheaper for around £18 at minimum price online.

Edited 14 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Steven Broomfield]

The only issue with the Bilton book is that it covers only Service battalions: Regulars and TF units are outwith its scope.

[reevo6825]

Steven

 

Good save! I was going to buy the kindle version as it’s in £20 but that would be no use as it’s now only the 1st (regular) battalion’s badge I’m after.

[FROGSMILE]

3 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

The only issue with the Bilton book is that it covers only Service battalions: Regulars and TF units are outwith its scope.

Yes, it needs a couple more volumes ideally.

[conijoni]

"There was also a cadet unit that wore their own special badge, the cadet battalion of the Church Lads Brigade affiliated unit, 16th Bn KRRC."

 

This is not correct. The 16th Bn KRRC was a service battalion like all the other service battalions and wore the standard KRRC cap badge. It was not a cadet battalion. It was formed in 1914 by ex members of the Church Lads Brigade. 

 

Many Church Lads Brigade Companies became cadet companies after 1911 when the government of the day introduced Cadet Regulations. Due to the connection with the 16th Bn KRRC, and the fact that the CLB Commandant, General Lord Grenfell, was a KRRC Commandant, the CLB was affiliated to the KRRC in 1917. CLB Cadets wore the special badge you mention.

 

The Cadets badge was never worn by the 16th Bn KRRC. 

Edited 22 February , 2020 by conijoni

[FROGSMILE]

43 minutes ago, conijoni said:

"There was also a cadet unit that wore their own special badge, the cadet battalion of the Church Lads Brigade affiliated unit, 16th Bn KRRC."

 

This is not correct. The 16th Bn KRRC was a service battalion like all the other service battalions and wore the standard KRRC cap badge. It was not a cadet battalion. It was formed in 1914 by ex members of the Church Lads Brigade. 

 

Many Church Lads Brigade Companies became cadet companies after 1911 when the government of the day introduced Cadet Regulations. Due to the connection with the 16th Bn KRRC, and the fact that the CLB Commandant, General Lord Grenfell, was a KRRC Commandant, the CLB was affiliated to the KRRC in 1917. CLB Cadets wore the special badge you mention.

 

The Cadets badge was never worn by the 16th Bn KRRC. 

Thank you, I did realise that the 16th Battalion itself did not wear a cadet badge and my words did not actually say that they did, but I did not explain myself well.  I was referring to the cadets themselves (CLB - i.e. boys) that were affiliated with the KRRC, just as you’ve explained.  I had thought that the boys were specifically affiliated with the 16th Battalion of adult soldiers that bore their name, as opposed to the entirety of the KRRC.
 

Edited 22 February , 2020 by FROGSMILE