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laughton

Zantvoorde British Cemetery Case #6: 1914 Border Regiment Lieutenant

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laughton

This is a child topic of this:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/262948-zantvoorde-british-cemetery/

 

There is an issue to sort out between the two candidates:

  • the Second Lieutenant is in the correct area but the Unknown has "2 Stars" so must be a Lieutenant
  • the Lieutenant is in the general area but not the exact same area but he has the correct rank

 

The change between the burial records and what the CWGC reports after "Posthumous Promotions" always cause a problem - aka the "Kipling Effect"!

 

Quote

Unknown 1914 Lieutenant of the Border Regiment with Sgt Bowmaker of the 2nd Bn Border Regiment 26 October 1914 COG-BR 2157916

  • the remains were at 28.P.6.a.5.0 south of Kruiseeck J.36 (see different spelling below)
  • there are only two (2) in Belgium in that period, both on the Ypres (Menin) Gate Memorial (CWGC Link)
  • Lieutenant Surtees is the same day and Lieutenant Gerrard is a week later
  • need to check if the 2nd Battalion stayed in the same location for that week, if so no answer to this case (unless I find the other Lieutenant)
  • the records say Kruiseik Hill (war diary page 7 of 373) - see alternate spelling above which is on trench maps
  • Surtees is reported wounded and missing, but also listed as a Second Lieutenant, but the Unknown had "2 Stars" so a full Lieutenant
  • BINGO! the other was FULL Lieutenant Gerrard (war diary page 14 of 373), at Veldhoek 28.J.15 - had they moved up?

 

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laughton

There were 78 men of the 2nd Bn Border Regiment lost on 26 October 1914 (CWGC Link). Fourteen (14) of them have known graves in this cemetery and five (5) others in surrounding cemeteries, leaving 59 unknown on the Ypres (Menin Gate) Memorial.

 

We know that Serjeant Bowmaker was in the same location where the remains were recovered at 28.P.6.a.5.0. Where were the others? 

  • COG-BR 1840040: Smith, Taylor and Shannon were all at 28.P.6.b.0.2
    • trick here also as Foy served as Shannon
  • COG-BR 1840042: Rathbone and Meteer were in that same location
  • COG-BR 2157918: Buck was at 28.P.6.a.5.2
  • COG-BR 2157913: Moss was at 28.P5.d.7.4
  • I did not check any others in this cemetery

 

Others were found back where either HQ or the Base Camp was located correction, that is the location of the Kruiseecke German Military Cemetery (COG-BR 1836552): - note also that J.36 and P.6 are adjoining sectors

  • COG-BR 1836522: Bryan and Button at 28.J.36.a.8.5
  • GRRF 2147754: Dance and Smith do not have burial locations, buried Ypres
  • GRRF 2020773: Rostron and Jones (3 days later), no burial records, buried Lille

 

Without question, these results do show that the 2nd Bn Border Regiment was in the P.6 location when Lieutenant Gerrard was lost. The war diary was not specific so that must be where the HQ was located. Bryan and Button were lost at that location.

Edited by laughton
correction - 28.J.36.a.8.5 is German Cemetery

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laughton

So we know it is this man, the only FULL LIEUTENANT (2 Stars) that was recovered from 28.P.6.a.5.0. A number of other men were recovered at the same location. That statement is no longer correct as an error was discovered in the CWGC database and there were other men serving as Lieutenants in the 1st Battalion of the Border Regiment. The details are provided in the posts that follow.

 

The battalion was in the same location on 2 November 1914 as 26 October 1914 (war diary page 14 of 373). Lieutenant Gerrard is named in the war diary. All the men lost that day are named on the Menin Gate Memorial (CWGC Link).

Lieutenant
GERRARD, HARRY VERNON

Died 02/11/1914

2nd Bn.
Border Regiment

Mentioned in Despatches

 

doc2157916.JPG

 

Edited by laughton

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laughton
On 28/01/2020 at 11:55, laughton said:

COG-BR 1836522: Bryan and Button at 28.J.36.a.8.5

 

I did not make note when I checked on Bryan 65.H.9 and Button 65.H.13 that they were in GERMAN GRAVES, as marked on the COG-BR. Note on the side of the COG-BR that it says "Removed from "Kruiseecke German Military Cemetery".

 

I think their trench map coordinates might be wrong, as the trench maps clearly show the cemetery at 28.J.36.b.8.5, unless that is a completely different cemetery. On the trench map you can see the little red square, which was probably a military extension of the main cemetery.

 

28.J.36.a.8.5doc1836552.JPG

28.J.36.b.8.5175585819_KruiseeckeCemeteryonMap.jpg.863d03d443aa656aa92c4dd9858593b1.jpg

 

Private Thomas Bryan #7007 does have an ICRC file (under Brian, Border Regiment) as does Private D Button #8199 (his has several pages). Each of them have PA files with the details. Both are on this list: https://grandeguerre.icrc.org/en/File/Zoom/E/04/01/C_G1_E_04_01_0029/C_G1_E_04_01_0029_0182.JPG/4 and elsewhere.

 

Charles Gordon Villiers Surtees also has a file but without additional details (PA records). It does confirm his status as a "Second Lieutenant" at the time. I did not find a listing or file for Lieutenant Harry Vernon Gerrard on the ICRC database.

 

C_G1_E_15_01_0010_2725_0.JPG C_G1_E_15_01_0013_3290_0.JPG C_G1_E_15_01_0082_0526_0.JPG

 

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laughton

Closing up loose ends on this case:

  1. There were no men in 1914 on the CWGC database that showed the Border Regiment as their Secondary Regiment.
  2. The Unknown Lieutenant is shown on the GRRF as 1914 but he was not subsequently identified.
doc2157691.JPG

 

Closing off another item - the COG-BR in the post above identified all but one of the men with the numbers and regimental details. It would appear that the one they missed is was because the number was not 7302 but 7307, a common transcription error at some point in the process. He was also of the 1st Gloucestershire Regiment:

 

The CWGC might not accept that, as there was also another with a similar number:

 

Edited by laughton
updated information

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clive_hughes

Just in passing Laughton, and hopefully not a distraction: I was hoping it might have been a 2nd Lieutenant, since one of those I have an interest in was  2Lt. Charles Heyland Evans of the Border Regt., wounded and missing 26 October.  Later accounts said he had been shot not long after capture, while trying to prevent the enemy abusing other wounded men.

 

But I'm impressed as ever with your dedication in chasing down the unknowns, and hope this gets the result it deserves.

 

Clive

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laughton

Clive:

 

I am still in the middle stages of this case, so I have not eliminated the Second Lieutenants, just in case one was not! Every possibility has to be checked.

 

Also, the information to date is for the men of the 2nd Battalion. There are also Lieutenants of the 1st BattalionWarren an unknown but lost only a few weeks before the known - Egerton. The initial problem was that Egerton had no COG-BR, so initially I did know where he was. I could not find the war diary as it only showed the 1st Battalion in the 87th Brigade, 29th Division after April 1915 (Ancestry is wrong as it says April 1916). The LLT had nothing about them being in Belgium in 1914, so logic told ,me those two officers must have been with the 2nd Battalion? 

 

Sure enough Egerton's death was recorded in the 2nd Battalion records for 17 October 1914 (war diary page 4 of 373). Warren's death, although with different initials, was recorded in the 2nd Battalion records for October 26th, not on the 28th as shown on the CWGC database. Surtees and Warren are listed in the same entry (war diary page 8 of 373).

 

Warren was lost on the 28th, so only 2 days after Bowmaker. Gerrard was lost 5 days later. If I can not separate Warren and Bowmaker Gerrard then I have no case. If I relied on the CWGC database for factual information, I would have never found out about Egerton and Warren. I have not yet determined whether it was a transcription error or if they were 1st Battalion and attached to 2nd Battalion - that comes later.

 

Richard

 

Edited by laughton
Gerrard not Bowmaker

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laughton

Filling in some blanks and making corrections:

  • I have corrected post #2 where I was initially trying to figure out the difference between the two adjoining sectors of 28.J.36 and 28.P.6.
    • The men that are recorded as being concentrated from 28.J.36.a.8.5 I believe were actually concentrated from 28.J.26.c.8.5 (or 7.5), which from the trench maps appears to be the location of the Kruiseecke German Military Cemetery. Those men have ICRC files.
    • The others that do not have ICRC files appear to have been battlefield casualties that are not associated with a cemetery or a German burial. If we take the corrected location of the German burials, then the battlefield burials (intentional burials or just where they fell) is 750 yards due south of the German burials at 28.P.6.a.5.0.
       
  • Lieutenant Philip John Egerton was accidentally shot, severely wounded, by his own men (war diary page 4 of 373) on 17 October 1914. He is buried in the Ypres Town Cemetery. The only concentrations to that cemetery were in the extension, so we know that Lieutenant Eggerton was directly buried. We can assume that he was taken to an aid station where he subsequently died. He is not a candidate for the Unknown Lieutenant of the Border Regiment. We do not know, at this time whether he was with the 1st Battalion and had been transferred or attached to the 2nd Battalion, but we do know he was with the 2nd Battalion when he was accidentally killed.
     
  • Lieutenant James Brooker Brough Warren was killed in action on 26 October 1914 with the 2nd Battalion, not 28 October 1914 with the 1st Battalion, as recorded by the CWGC. That is the same day that Second Lieutenant Charles Gordon Villiers Surtees was wounded in action and reported missing. Both men's names are in the same entry in the battalion records (war diary page 8 of 373). They are reported to be at Kruiseecke Hill, which I interpret from the trench maps to be the elevation 45 in either sector 28.J.36.a or 28.J.36.d. The war diary says that they "advanced up the hill". It would appear that they arrived at the area on the hill on 20 October 1914 (war diary page 5 of 373). The company layout and the partner regiments are noted there as well, in the event that information is needed later. The remains of Lieutenant Warren and Second Lieutenant Surtees were not knowingly recovered. Lieutenant Warren is a candidate for the Unknown Lieutenant of the Border Regiment. As with Lieutenant Eggerton, the CWGC reports Lieutenant Warren was with the 1st Battalion but he was killed while serving with the 2nd Battalion (attached, transferred or a transcription error - I don't know). Although Second Lieutenant Surtees is recorded on the CWGC database as a Lieutenant, we know he was only a Second Lieutenant at the time of his death and would not be wearing "2 Stars".
     
  • Lieutenant Harry Vernon Gerrard was killed in action on 2 November 1914, a week after Lieutenant Warren. Previously I noted it was 5 days later, before it was discovered that Warren was killed on the 26th not the 28th. The war diary reports they were at Veldhoek 28.J.15.d.0.0, which is some distance away from where the remains were recovered and 3,200 yards north of where they were at Zandvoorde 28.P.3.central on the previous day (war diary page 13 of 373). In post #1 this issue was raised, but at that time Lieutenant Gerrard was the only candidate Lieutenant, as Lieutenant Warren was not listed as in the 2nd Battalion. At night they retired "to woods near Ypres Road", which may have been Inverness Copse - need to find out. A separate note (war diary page 17 of 373) also refers to the 2nd Battalion being at Veldhoek. On the following page there is reference to the 20th Brigade, of which the Border Regiment was a component, had to hold the exposed position of Kruiseecke Hill.

I did refer to the Divisional War Diary and I was somewhat surprised at the ambitious plan that was in place to attack Menin on or about 17 October 1914 (war diary page 12 of 737). It would appear there was some disagreement between H.Q. and the men in the field. They actually went ahead with that plan but it was "checked by being taken in flank before it could develop". The war diary is nicely typed and in considerable detail.

 

By 25 October 1914 there is a report of the 20th Brigade front line being broken in east of Kruiseecke (war diary page 25 of 737). The 20th Brigade was on the Kruiseecke Hill the following day when Lieutenant Warren was killed and subjected to a significant bombardment. They were holding the western slopes (war diary page 26 of 737).

 

I will need to return to this to fill in the details, but so far it would appear that the logical candidate is Lieutenant Warren, as he is in the correct position on 26 October 1914. The weather is playing havoc with my Internet connection!

 

Map of line held 19 October 1914 (says 1915) - page 66 of 737

Sketch: page 77 of 737

Summary of Operations 6 October 14 November: page 108 of 737

At Ypres 2 November 1914: page 116 of 737

 

Gerrard may be out if this is correct that he was a Captain in November 1914: De Ruvigny's Roll of Honour page 134 of 325However, the London Gazette is dated 12 November 1914 (bottom right corner) for a promotion dated 29 October 1914. I will have to defer to David @Muerrisch on this topic, as only the Oz will know! Two items come from this:

  • The CWGC should follow their standard and list him on the database as a Captain.
  • For this case, we should condsider him still to be a Lieutenant.
Edited by laughton
Egerton not Eggerton

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laughton

Checking on a few loose ends:

  • Where was the 1st Battalion of the Border Regiment during the 1914 Great War years?
    • The LLT says: "August 1914 : in Maymyo, Burma. Returned to England, landing at Avonmouth 10 January 1915. Moved to Rugby. January 1915 : came under orders of 87th Brigade in 29th Division."
    • There is conformation of this within the CWGC database, as Private William Clark #10337 (served as Wilson) of the 1st Battalion is buried (after concentration) in the Taukkyan War Cemetery in Burma, date of death 8 December 1914 (COG-BR 1889639).
    • There are only four (4) men of the 1st Battalion on the CWGC database for the August-December 1914 period, which includes the two (2) Lieutenants we now know were with the 2nd Battalion in Belgium, Private Clark in Burma (Mayanmar) and Serjeant Cross #7320 buried in Boulogne Eastern Cemetery, France (Hospital Cemetery). Serjeant Cross appears to be an error as well as his "Soldier's Effects" says 2nd Battalion, died at 13th General Hospital 9 November 1914.
       
  • Were there other members of the 2nd Battalion Border Regiment buried in the Zantvoorde Cemetery, other than those already noted in Post #2?
    • Yes, some known and some unknown.
    • COG-BR 1840041: Private Blezard and 2 unknowns at 28.P.6.b.0.2
    • COG-BR 1840042: 2 other unknowns with Meteer and Rathbone at the same location as above
    • COG-BR 1840043: 1 unknown, same general location
    • COG-BR 1840055: 1 listed by number 16361 (Holder) and 4 unknown at 28.J.21.a.2.2 which is Veldhoek where Lieutenant Gerrard was reported lost
    • COG-BR 1840105: possibly 3, all 1914 although not named as Border Regiment, including a Second Lieutenant at 28.J.36.c.7.5, close to the German Cemetery at Kruiseecke
      • @clive_hughes is looking for a Second Lieutenant of the Border Regiment
      • could be Evans, Clancey or now also on the list is Surtees (maybe we will find 2 more?) - did not find them in this cemetery
    • some others at that same location on COG-BR 1840107, COG-BR 1840108 (numbers 7245 and 37240), including a Lance Corporal, COG-BR 1840109 (5)
      • some of these may be 2nd Scots Guards, as we have CSM H. Wilford with four (4) others on COG-BR 1840110
      • a 1914 Captain also at 28.J.36.c.7.5, with four (4) others including a Royal HIghlander - check how many Captains are we missing at that time (wow 101!)?
    • as the list goes on it appears there is a mix of many others at this location COG-BR 1840114COG-BR 1840115
      • COG-BR 1840116: Chandler (number on boot) of the Border Regiment and Captain Ransford of the South Staffordshire
        • Chandler #7617 is aso listed by name as exhumed from this German Cemetery on COG-BR 1840133 , okay same Grave 6.J.16
        • there are seven (7) of the Border Regiment all named on that sheet
      • COG-BR 1840117: a mixture of seven (7), including four (4) of the Border Regiment, named and or numbered - check some of them on the ICRC lists
      • COG-BR 1840118: ditto ten (10) more, including the Captain of the Royal Berks (that is CWGC Case #394)
    • in the new set of COG-BR documents found recently
      • COG-BR 2157913: Private Moss of the Border Regiment with a group of South Staffs at 28.P.5.d.7.4, which is not the cemetery but to the southwest
      • COG-BR 2157914: another batch of eight (8), some named as 2 Border and others not, thriteen more on COG-BR 2157915
        • and the one that follows is the COG-BR 2157916 with Bowmaker and the Lieutenant and seven (7) other unknowns from the same location

That was a lot of hunting but it did turn up the valuable information that there were five (5) others of the Border Regiment recovered from the same location where Lieutenant Gerrard was reported lost at Veldhoek.

 

Clive's man Evans, who is mentioned in the above list, raises an interesting question. He is listed in the records (war diary page 8 of 373) as a Second Lieutenant "wounded and missing", so exactly the same as Surtees. I thought I would check them out to see which one of the three (Evans, Clancey, Surtees) was most likely buried at the German Military Cemetery at 28.J.36.c.7.5. Evans and Surtees have ICRC records but Clancey does not, however neither is reported buried at the German cemetery (no PA file). Evans record flashed out "Lieutenant "promoted Captain" 2nd Border Regiment! So does that make him a candidate for the missing Lieutenant? Why would the war diary have someone listed as a Second Lieutenant and the ICRC as either a Lieutenant or a Captain?

 

The London Gazette (Publication date: 1 December 1914 Issue: 28992 Page: 10191) says Charles Heyland Evans was promoted 29 October 1914 (3 days after his death) but only to Lieutenant. Sure enough there is another listing for a Charles H. Evans (page 11285 12 November 1915) to be a Captain in a precedence list - must be a different Evans? There was a Charles H. Evans, M.D. who followed a similar route, so they may have confused the two men, but I see him only as a Temporary Honourable Lieutenant (page 1343 January 1920).

 

file front side

 

Edited by laughton
added details about Evans

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LDT006

This is what I have on those cemeteries:

28.J.36.c.7.5 is the correct location for the German cemetery at Kruiseke ( AKA Kruiseik, Kruiseecke,..)

This cemetery was created in 1916 by the Germans to concentrate field graves and small cemeteries in a large one for ease of maintenance. The soldiers buried here had their original grave in the wide area around it including Zandvoorde and it is unknown where the original grave was.

After the war, 71 British soldiers were moved from here to Tynecot, 93 to Zandvoorde, 2 to Sanctuary wood and 30 have a special memorial at Zandvoorde for a lost grave at Kruiseke GMC.

There were several other German cemeteries in the area with 1914 casualties that were leaved where they were, most around America, to the south of Kruiseke.

 

The location (28.P.6.a.5.0) where the Unknown 1914 Lieutenant of the Border Regiment was found seems to be mass grave with 32 British soldiers, I don't know if these were buried by the Germans or British. I have great difficulty to follow this topic (no Ancestry for war diaries etc..) and can't comment further.

There was a similar mass grave at 28.P.6.b.0.2 with 12 British soldiers moved to Zandvoorde, see COG-BR below.

Civilians were forced by the Germans to bury the dead from the battlefield in these mass graves, the German grave recording system was not yet established and no effort was made to identify the British soldiers.

 

First Ypres is a can of worms because regiments were called in from their reserve or billet position to counter German attacks, battalions were out of position, everything happened very fast and is very difficult to follow. The dates of death are sometimes wrong at CWGC (unless officers are mentioned in war diaries) making it more difficult.

Just my 2 cents,

Luc.

 

 

doc1840040.JPG.6e4187757f7452b07cc3424b17c27552.JPG

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laughton

Thanks for that input Luc, as I knew that if anyone knew the background it would be you! 

 

As for:

28 minutes ago, LDT006 said:

I have great difficulty to follow this topic (no Ancestry for war diaries etc..) and can't comment further.

It is my understanding that we are forbidden by Admin from posting war diary entries that we have from Ancestry, or any other such information from the Ancestry site, or in fact any subscription site.

 

I personally do not believe I would be in conflict with the Ancestry rules I agreed to as a subscriber, if the information was for my personal research. So theoretically, I can post the information if it is the topic that I started and continue to research. If James Smith started the topic and I addressed an issue by posting the war diary page from Ancestry, I would be in conflict, as it was not for my personal research. I could easily address that by forming a "research team" to work on that case, where both James Smith and Richard Laughton were members. Ancestry does not itself hold the copyright, they are merely a licensed distributor of the content and thus respect the original copyright.

 

Alternatively, if you specifically asked me to post some information for you because you did not have a subscription and I was not involved in the research, that would be a violation.

 

What Ancestry says is:

 

With respect to Ancestry Content, you agree:

  • To keep all copyright and other proprietary notices on any Ancestry Content you download or print; and
  • Not to distribute, republish, or sell significant portions of any Ancestry Content.

 

It is such a confusing issue, I took it as best just to post the links so that anyone else with an account can follow the links. If there is critical information to the topic, then it can be retyped or paraphrased.

 

I will ask Admin to comment on this question, as I am sure it is a question of interest to all members. If they say that I can post "snippets" (i.e. a specifically relevant sentence or paragraph) then I will follow that rule.,

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kenf48
24 minutes ago, laughton said:

I will ask Admin to comment on this question, as I am sure it is a question of interest to all members. If they say that I can post "snippets" (i.e. a specifically relevant sentence or paragraph) then I will follow that rule.,

 

The forum rules are explicit on matters of copyright, all members of the forum agree to abide by these rules and your interpretation is accurate.

 

Posting  significant Ancestry content is, as you have observed in breach of their rules, and we could not condone it.  Obviously if sections of the war diary are paraphrased in the interests of research then there is no breach of copyright.  We are not in the business of trying to circumvent Ancestry rules by setting up a 'research team', but there is always the facility of personal messaging for co=operation outside the open forum. 

 

The solution you have adopted in post 8 is correct, does not breach either forum rules or Ancestry's terms and conditions and we would not seek to intervene.  In fact I don't think having sight of the diary adds anything to your interpretation and research.

e.g.

On 31/01/2020 at 14:28, laughton said:

 is exactly what the war diary says.

 

I don't think posting a map or operation order can be regarded as 'significant content', especially in the context of research.  I trust this clarifies the position, if you have any further observations please PM me or any member of the admin team.  Further discussion on this thread would be, as previously mentioned a further unneccessary distraction from the main topic.  A forum search will identify previous specific discussions on matters of copyright.

 

Ken

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laughton

Thank you Ken, we now return to our regularly scheduled hunt for the Border Regiment Lieutenant.

 

There are always additional items to tighten up, such as the rank of Charles Gordon Villers Surtees at the time of his death on 26 October 1914. As already noted, it is Second Lieutenant Surtees that is reported wounded and missing (war diary page 8 of 373). This is confirmed by an entry in the London Gazette on 22 January 1915 (Supplement 29048 Page 782), denoting a posthumous promotion to Lieutenant as of 29 October 1914, three (3) days after his death. The rank of Second Lieutenant is also note on his ICRC record and Soldier’s Effects (page 146 of 284).

 

Luc has added an interesting piece of information concerning the cemetery at Kruiseecke:

15 hours ago, LDT006 said:

28.J.36.c.7.5 is the correct location for the German cemetery at Kruiseke ( AKA Kruiseik, Kruiseecke,..)

This cemetery was created in 1916 by the Germans to concentrate field graves and small cemeteries in a large one for ease of maintenance. The soldiers buried here had their original grave in the wide area around it including Zandvoorde and it is unknown where the original grave was.

 

That means that we do not know exactly where the men on the German burial lists originated. I will have to try and determine if they came from as far away as Veldhoek 28.J.15.d.0.0, where Lieutenant Gerrard was killed on 2 November 1914. I suspect that if he was identified as an Officer and concentrated to Kruiseecke, then he would be named on the German list. There is always the possibility that he could be the Unknown British Officer in Plot 65 Row H Grave 2 (COG-BR 1836552).

 

That issue may not be critical to this case, but it needs some further thought. The reasoning being that the FULL LIEUTENANT (2 Stars) that was recovered from 28.P.6.a.5.0 would have been in what Luc has called a mass grave, of which there were more than one. I would suggest that a localized mass grave is substantially different from an organized German concentration cemetery. If the Unknown Lieutenant was found at 28.J.36.c.7.5 rather than at 28.P.6.a.5.0, we would have a completely different situation - perhaps an unresolvable case.

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David Filsell

You note

"Posting  significant Ancestry content is, as you have observed in breach of their rules, and we could not condone it.  Obviously if sections of the war diary are paraphrased in the interests of research then there is no breach of copyright.  We are not in the business of trying to circumvent Ancestry rules by setting up a 'research team', but there is always the facility of personal messaging for co=operation outside the open forum. "

 

Have they really the right to stop you copying records they have published which are really in the public domain - ie the National Archive - whose copy they have copied?  Or is it simply that in signing up you have agreed to meet their requirements?

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laughton
16 hours ago, kenf48 said:

Further discussion on this thread would be, as previously mentioned a further unnecessary distraction from the main topic.  A forum search will identify previous specific discussions on matters of copyright.

 

Agreed, clarification was made and this is the topic about the 1914 Border Regiment Lieutenant.

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LDT006
7 hours ago, laughton said:

 

23 hours ago, LDT006 said:

28.J.36.c.7.5 is the correct location for the German cemetery at Kruiseke ( AKA Kruiseik, Kruiseecke,..)

This cemetery was created in 1916 by the Germans to concentrate field graves and small cemeteries in a large one for ease of maintenance. The soldiers buried here had their original grave in the wide area around it including Zandvoorde and it is unknown where the original grave was.

 

That means that we do not know exactly where the men on the German burial lists originated. I will have to try and determine if they came from as far away as Veldhoek 28.J.15.d.0.0, where Lieutenant Gerrard was killed on 2 November 1914. I suspect that if he was identified as an Officer and concentrated to Kruiseecke, then he would be named on the German list. There is always the possibility that he could be the Unknown British Officer in Plot 65 Row H Grave 2 (COG-BR 1836552).

 

Veldhoek is rather far away but it is possible, there was a German concentration cemetery "In de Ster" which is closer at 28.J.6.a.8.2 with 53 soldiers moved from there to Oosttaverne, COG-BR 2152669 and the following ones.

I would make a spreadsheet with all the identified ones from 28.P.6.a.5.0 and 28.P.6.b.0.2, including these with regiment only, ex: where does that "UBS Staffs 1914" comes from on doc2157915? Where they in the area at the same time?

A second spreadsheet would be needed with all identified from the brigade of the border regiment to get a better idea of their burial locations. You need to prove that this mass grave (trench grave is probably a better name for it) was only for soldiers from that timeframe and not near a German field hospital where casualties from a larger timeframe were buried.

 

The map below from the book 7th division by C.T. Atkinson shows that Kruiseke was captured by the Germans on that day and indicates that if the battlefield was cleared, the bodies could have been buried in these trench graves. It makes it easier to follow the topic and also shows how the regiments were mixed-up during the day.

 

1938541398_7thDiv6.png.8068f8aafe4f02561c298f997ecf2e61.png

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laughton

Thanks for the link and the map! Good to know it is on Amazon Kindle for a low price as an ebook as well.

 

I finally got to the 20th Infantry Brigade war diary for that period in October-November 1914, as I was having problems figuring out how the Borders got from Kruiseik to Veldhoek. The war diary tells us that the 20th Brigade withdrew to Veldhoek on 29 October 1914 midnight. It must have been a confusing event as the Scots Guards were fired on by the Queens, who mistook them for Germans!

 

The whole of the 20th Brigade was withdrawn to Veldhoek at nightfall on the 30th. An enemy attack was feared imminent. On the 31st they took up a line along the eastern edge of the wood running north and south from Veldhoek cross roads. They were shelled heavily. The 21st Brigade was driven out of the front line but the 20th held the line to their rear, then moved up to take the 21st line under heavy shell fire. The German attack came along the Gheluvelt-Zandvoorde frontage and then to the woods to the rear of the Veldhoek-Zandvoorde Road (that must be the woods just south of the Chateau?).

 

They refer to the Chateau Heronthal wood, which I have to assume is the Chateau Haranthage in 28.J.20.b on the southern border of Veldhoek? The November war diary reports them there on the 1st with a complement of 5 Officers and 270 Other Ranks - interestingly commanded by a Captain Warren (the Lieutenant Warren was KIA on the 26th). The HQ in the Chateau was heavily bombarded ("Jack Johnsons") and the HQ thus moved to the dug-outs in the woods.

 

November 2nd 1914, the day Lieutenant Gerrard was killed, still has the Borders in the trenches, where they suffered from the enfilade fire. The war diary reports they "stuck it out" until the enemy retired. There is no mention of the death of Lieutenant Gerrard.

 

At least we now know that on 2 November 1914 the 2nd Borders was not at Kruiseik and so Lieutenant Gerrard was not at 28.P.6.a.5.0.

 

That means the missing man was Lieutenant Warren.

 

 

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laughton

From the history of the 7th Division covering the period when Lieutenant Warren was killed on 2 November 1914:

 

Borders are south of Veldhoek, south of Stout Wood 28.J.20.d which is about 4,300 yards away northwest of where the remains were recovered:620847802_Map87thDivisionHistory.jpg.f9e36a0840e1fc2f16bc7d1f8cb31f4f.jpg

The next day (November 2nd) saw rather more serious fighting on the left flank ...

 

Actually it was the right battalion of the Division, the Borders, who came in for the heaviest fighting. About 11 a.m. the Northamptons, the left battalion of Lord Cavan's force, were shelled out of their left trenches and fell back a little way, uncovering the Borders' right. For some time the Germans made no advance; then about 1 p.m. they suddenly pressed forward into the gap and at the same time advanced against the Borders' front.

 

The attack was heralded by a tremendous blowing of bugles, but this merely served to warn the British reserves to move up, and, when the Germans came on, the Borders held their fire until the advance was close to the wire which they had managed to put up. Then they let fly with devastating effect, knocking over from 200 to 300 Germans and driving the rest back into the sheltering woods. Here they rallied and came on again. The same scene was again enacted, but that the withdrawal of some troops on the right allowed the Germans to push on past the Borders' flank. There was a perilous moment in which the battalion seemed about to be outflanked and rolled up, but Sergeant Booth averted the danger by rushing up two platoons from reserve; these reoccupied the vacated trenches in the nick of time and kept the enemy at bay until help came up in the shape of the 2nd Worcestershire, now acting as General Capper's Divisional Reserve, along with the Cyclists and the Northumberland Hussars. When that night the Borders were relieved by the Grenadiers and taken back into reserve they received special praise and congratulations on their tenacity from General Capper. They had had over 50 casualties, but had inflicted many times that number.

 

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laughton

I did file a correction notice with the CWGC on this case and Roy was in agreement, thus the CWGC database will have changed from when the above posts were made. I will need to take that into account if this case goes to the "Reporting Stage".

 

Here is the information, as otherwise it will be lost!

Quote

From: CWGC Enquiry Support Team
Sent: Friday, February 28, 2020 11:18 AM
To: rlaughton
Subject: RE: 1914 Border Regiment Records - Enquiry 00091547

 

Dear Mr. Laughton,

Thank you for pointing out the errors in our records for the 2nd Bn. Border Regiment.  After some additional research these have been agreed and our records will update tonight.

We are aware that the ranks we display can differ from the ranks actually worn at the time of their death due to the promotion process.  This does, as you say, make it difficult for researchers to take our information at face value, when undertaking id cases, but such issues should always emerge if a well researched case is submitted or they will be highlighted as part of the adjudication process.

Yours sincerely
 

Roy Hemington
Records Data Manager

Commonwealth War Graves Commission, Maidenhead, Berkshire, United Kingdom

Tel: +44 1628 507200  |  Fax: +44 1628 771208  |  Website: www.cwgc.org

Commonwealth War Graves Commission Logo


--------------- Original Message ---------------
From: Richard Laughton
Sent: 04/02/2020 15:05
To: enquiries@cwgc.org
Subject: RE: 1914 Border Regiment Records - Enquiry 00091547

 

There is an update to this message of 2/2/2020 (Enquiry 00091547)

 

There are a number of the dates of death that differ from what is recorded in the war diary versus the CWGC database:

 

1.      “p” in front of rank means it was a posthumous promotion – all are correct except Gerrard

2.      Captains Radcliffe and Pyman are not researched here as they were attached to other regiments at the time of their death

3.      The research notes provide a link to the war diary page where the date of death is recorded

 

surname

forename

cwgc death

war diary death

cwgc rank (at death)

research notes

RADCLIFFE

MILES

12/12/1914

 

Captain

 

PYMAN

JAMES

18/11/1914

 

Captain

 

ASKEW

HENRY ADAM

19/12/1914

18/12/1914

Captain

Sailly pg 22 of 373

ANDREWS

CHARLES GEORGE WILLIAMS

28/10/1914

26/10/1914

Captain

Kruiseik Hill pg 8 of 373

CHOLMONDELEY

CHARLES ALMERIC JOHN

28/10/1914

26/10/1914

Captain

Kruiseik Hill pg 8 of 373

GORDON

ROBERT NORMAN

28/10/1914

22/10/1914

Captain

Kruiseik Hill pg 6 of 373

LEES

EDMUND HASTINGS HARCOURT

28/10/1914

26/10/1914

Captain

Kruiseik Hill pg 8 of 373

LAMB

CAMERON

29/12/1914

 

Captain

Sailly pg 22 of 373 (DOW from 18th)

GERRARD

HARRY VERNON

2/11/1914

 

Lieutenant (p-Captain)

Veldhoek pg 14 of 373

HODGSON

GEORGE WILLIAM HOUGHTON

6/11/1914

wd 6/11/1915 ??

p-Lieutenant (2nd Lt)

Veldhoek pg 14 of 373

EGERTON

PHILIP JOHN

17/10/1914

 

Lieutenant

Zillebeke pg 4 of 373

COOCH

CHARLES ROLLO

17/12/1914

 

Lieutenant

De Ruvigny's pg 78 of 325

SURTEES

CHARLES GORDON VILLIERS

26/10/1914

 

p-Lieutenant (2nd Lt)

Kruiseik Hill pg 8 of 373

WARREN

JAMES BOOKER BROUGH

28/10/1914

26/10/1914

Lieutenant

Kruiseik Hill pg 8 of 373

ALLEN

WILLIAM LYNN

28/10/1914

25/10/1914

Major

 

servlet.ImageServer?oid=00D24000000Kljz&esid=0184H00000QmtOY
 

 

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