Help with identifying uniform of a Dragoon.

[Nagal11]

This is my great uncle John Douglas Robinson from the Shankill area of Belfast. He originally enlisted in the Royal Irish Fusiliers and later transferred to the 3rd Dragoons. This is the only picture I have of him in  uniform which I received from another family member recently. Can someone help me determine exactly what his uniform is? I realised when trying to look up the uniform that there are a variety of Dragoons and I can't seem to find an exact match for this uniform. The emblem on the sleeve looks like a Celtic design to me. 

 

I will be very grateful for any help either directly identifying the uniform or pointing me in the correct direction to find it myself. I have combed through lots of photos online and see some that look like they might be correct but not one I'm certain is correct.

Thanks

Heather

[FROGSMILE]

6 hours ago, Nagal11 said:

This is my great uncle John Douglas Robinson from the Shankill area of Belfast. He originally enlisted in the Royal Irish Fusiliers and later transferred to the 3rd Dragoons. This is the only picture I have of him in  uniform which I received from another family member recently. Can someone help me determine exactly what his uniform is? I realised when trying to look up the uniform that there are a variety of Dragoons and I can't seem to find an exact match for this uniform. The emblem on the sleeve looks like a Celtic design to me. 

 

I will be very grateful for any help either directly identifying the uniform or pointing me in the correct direction to find it myself. I have combed through lots of photos online and see some that look like they might be correct but not one I'm certain is correct.

Thanks

Heather

 

 

If you are correct with your information referring to "3rd" then it is very likely that he is 3rd (Prince of Wales's Own) Dragoon Guards.  The facings were yellow velvet, but the orthochromatic film used then rendered that as a dark shade.  There was a period in the years before WW1 when all cavalry had to have the front rank of each squadron armed with the lance for shock action.  This was extremely unpopular and soon ended, leaving just lancer regiments with the lance.

 

NB.  The cuff knot that you refer to as a Celtic design was a special design common to all the regiments 'dressed in the style of Dragoons'.  This included:  1.  Dragoon regiments, 2.  Dragoon Guards regiments (who were the most senior of all line cavalry) and 3.  even the Military Mounted Police and Military Foot Police.  You can read about another 3rd DG during WW1 here: https://thegreenwoodtreeblog.wordpress.com/2017/05/15/3rd-dragoon-guards-and-their-part-at-arras-offensive-1917/  However, you should note that your photograph dates to around 1900, at least a decade before WW1.  

 

 

 

Edited 27 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Nagal11]

Frogsmile

Thank you so much for this information. You confirmed what I already thought. You are correct about the age of the photo. I think it is actually around 1905. This uncle was a bit of a mystery in the family. His brothers, including my granda, all served in WW1. We understood him to have had a military career prior to WW1 in the UK and actually thought he also served in WW1 with British forces. However, I recently discovered he emigrated to the US prior to WW1 (although he also was back in Belfast after that time frame)and I am now investigating what he was actually doing during this time. He may have served in WW1 in the American forces. I found his WW1 draft card in the US. The family lost track of him so I have been searching info on him for years and finally coming up with his full life story. He had been working as a railway man in New Jersey and his union card and another identifying card were actually found, by someone in the expeditionary forces,  in a locomotive in France during WW1. Not sure how that would happen unless he was there. Another mystery  to investigate.

Anyway, thank you so much for your information. So glad there are people willing to take the time to help, it is much appreciated. 

[FROGSMILE]

11 hours ago, Nagal11 said:

Frogsmile

Thank you so much for this information. You confirmed what I already thought. You are correct about the age of the photo. I think it is actually around 1905. This uncle was a bit of a mystery in the family. His brothers, including my granda, all served in WW1. We understood him to have had a military career prior to WW1 in the UK and actually thought he also served in WW1 with British forces. However, I recently discovered he emigrated to the US prior to WW1 (although he also was back in Belfast after that time frame)and I am now investigating what he was actually doing during this time. He may have served in WW1 in the American forces. I found his WW1 draft card in the US. The family lost track of him so I have been searching info on him for years and finally coming up with his full life story. He had been working as a railway man in New Jersey and his union card and another identifying card were actually found, by someone in the expeditionary forces,  in a locomotive in France during WW1. Not sure how that would happen unless he was there. Another mystery  to investigate.

Anyway, thank you so much for your information. So glad there are people willing to take the time to help, it is much appreciated. 

I am glad to help.  I don’t think it can be as late as 1905 because of his headwear and shoulder pouch belt.  He is wearing a pill box forage cap, and these started to be phased out from the end of the 2nd Boer War, in 1902, when they were replaced by Brodrick caps (rather like a sailors cap).  In 1905 the Brodrick was replaced by the peaked (US ‘visored’) coloured forage cap that you see worn by the dismounted man in the large image I posted above.  Furthermore, the white shoulder belt and its fitted pouch, slung in the centre of the back, was abolished for line cavalry in the late 1890s.

 

Good luck with your research.  It is possible that your forebear had a residual reserve obligation, depending upon how long he had served and when he left the army.  If so he would have been ‘recalled to the colours’ (mobilised) on the outbreak of war in August 1914.

Edited 28 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[rolt968]

There is a soldier's record on Find My Past for John Robinson, 7709, Royal Innsikilling Fusiliers, 5454, 3 Dragoon Guards, enlisted Omagh 27 July 1903 for 3 + 9. He transferred to 3 DG on 9 November 1903. He went on to the reserve on 28 July 1906.

 

I'm not sure if he carried out any of his reserve obligation.

RM

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, rolt968 said:

There is a soldier's record on Find My Past for John Robinson, 7709, Royal Innsikilling Fusiliers, 5454, 3 Dragoon Guards, enlisted Omagh 27 July 1903 for 3 + 9. He transferred to 3 DG on 9 November 1903. He went on to the reserve on 28 July 1906.

 

I'm not sure if he carried out any of his reserve obligation.

RM

That certainly seems to me to fit, RM, thank you for looking the details up.  

[rolt968]

19 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

That certainly seems to me to fit, RM, thank you for looking the details up.  

Would it still be consistent with the pill box cap in the photo. The earliest it could have been taken was the very end of 1903?

(I believe that the Broderick cap was not popular. Would some regiments have delayed its introduction as long as possible?)

 

RM

[FROGSMILE]

17 minutes ago, rolt968 said:

Would it still be consistent with the pill box cap in the photo. The earliest it could have been taken was the very end of 1903?

(I believe that the Broderick cap was not popular. Would some regiments have delayed its introduction as long as possible?)

 

RM

Yes, RM, I think that you’ve hit the nail on the head.  Given the evidence of the uniform and ancillaries, I believe that the photo must have been taken soon after the transfer in 1903.  We can imagine his enthusiasm to have his photo taken in his new uniform and role.  I imagine that he probably could already ride, Ireland was a much more rural economy than Britain, with less modern roads to facilitate motorists, and the equine bloodstock there was a major part of the culture and probably the economy too.

The Brodrick was, like most new items of uniform, but especially headdress a phased issue and took some time to be fully distributed, perhaps its unpopularity played a part in that, but also the pill box cap, rather like the stable jacket had been, was much liked by the troops because of its dashing appearance when walking-out among the ladies (an important recruiting factor at that time).  Also the shoulder pouch belt was popular, but being phased out as an anachronism too (it had originally been for carbine ammunition), so again that militates towards an early date.

Edited 29 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE