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Remembered Today:

Anzac - how much more can be found about this photo?


depaor01

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Found in a bundle of photos in our library - but no info as to who donated it unfortunately.

 

I see he's ANZAC with an Australia shoulder title and also long service chevrons plus good conduct stripe and no medal ribbons so possibly immediately postwar (?)

 

Anyone know what the shoulder flash is?

 

Interestingly on the back it's named as being from Jack Hynes who is presumably the soldier pictured. I've checked the Australian WWI records and there is indeed one John Hynes from County Clare, but I don't think either the signatures or the description match.

 

AnzacFront.jpg.1a9e254c75d1ff93e190c4c70c085cd4.jpg

 

 

AnzacBack.jpg.53cad82ae6e0c608be3b76a3b944c56b.jpg

 

Thanks in advance,

 

Dave

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Of which I know nothing, so cannot contribute! 

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I would agree that RKSimpson's man is probably the correct one

 

If so

1. Born Capella , Queensland Nov 1888 -Aus birth

2. Died Queensland 1939 Apr 16 - findagrave

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2 minutes ago, corisande said:

I would agree that RKSimpson's man is probably the correct one

 

If so

1. Born Capella , Queensland Nov 1888 -Aus birth

2. Died Queensland 1939 Apr 16 - findagrave

That is amazing!

What a sad end.

Thanks Corisande

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2 hours ago, rksimpson said:

Hi

 

Given the patch is for the Light Horse, I would say this chap - https://www.aif.adfa.edu.au/showPerson?pid=148867

Stripe is for Lance Corporal, which is recorded in his service records.

 

regards


Robert

Hi 

I not sure with the colour patch. He enlisted and embarked with the 5th Light Horse, but when the photo was taken he had served overseas for 4 years, as per the service chevrons. From his service papers, he was serving with 1st Divisional Ammunition Column as of 11 July 1916, so shouldn't the colour patch should be Artillery.

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9 minutes ago, ForeignGong said:

Hi 

I not sure with the colour patch. He enlisted and embarked with the 5th Light Horse, but when the photo was taken he had served overseas for 4 years, as per the service chevrons. From his service papers, he was serving with 1st Divisional Ammunition Column as of 11 July 1916, so shouldn't the colour patch should be Artillery.


As his rank is listed as Bombardier (one stripe at that time) it seems clear that he was indeed in the Royal Australian Artillery and probably posted there from the reinforcements depot.

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In fact,re looking at the photo,looks more like Jack Hynes??

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11 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

In fact,re looking at the photo,looks more like Jack Hynes??

It is, but Jack is an informal form of John and rarely seen in official docs. John F Kennedy was regularly known as Jack.

Thanks for the record I've been looking for it in vain!

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24 minutes ago, depaor01 said:

It is, but Jack is an informal form of John and rarely seen in official docs. John F Kennedy was regularly known as Jack.

Thanks for the record I've been looking for it in vain!

Of course, didn't think of it like that, and no worries👍

 

Chris 

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2 hours ago, Dragoon said:

Of course, didn't think of it like that, and no worries👍

 

Chris 

No problem Chris.

I think it took me 30 years to cop that one  :ph34r:

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Mates,

 

Men named Hynes in the ALH;

 

HYNES    Frederick    1593    Pte    02 LHR    12R Tos 2-16 att 5Co AASC 2-16 rtn 4-16 att WFF disch 19-9-16 MU TB    N/R    Labourer    23    Cross Hill Oakey Qld    10-8-15    RTA 17-7-16    Cross Hill Oakey Qld
HYNES    Herbert Percy    57557    Pte    3 GSR Tas    tos 03 LHR 1-19    N/R    Policeman    43    Burnie Tas    1-5-18    RTA 10-4-19    Burnie Tas
HYNES    John    2345    Pte    05 LHR    16R To AATD UK 7-16 to A/Bdr 10-16 tos L/Cpl 1 Sect/1 DAC 5-17 att 2 CCS 1-18 F&B    N/R    Labourer    27    Rockhampton    5-10-15    RTA 1-4-19    Claremont Qld
HYNES    John Edward    1777    Pte    05 LHR    12R to 2 LHTR 3-16 to Dvr 49Bty/13 FAB 3-16 WIA 23-9-17 head accident kicked by horse while grooming while Bde at rest at St Monielieu revert Gnr 11-17 att Sig school 7-18 to Dvr 11-18 F&B RTA 1915 leave later WWII     N/R    Grocer    21    Cairns Qld    31-12-14    RTA 13-4-19    Koorboora Qld
HYNES    John Francis    2343    Pte    11 LHR    18R to BSqn/4 LHTR 7-17 tos Dvr 36Co (996Co) AASC AMDT 8-17 to 38Co 5-19 Ex 27R/05 LHR (3307) DNE    N/R    Clerk    26    Bowen Hills Qld    25-10-16    RTA 10-7-19    Bowen Hills Qld
HYNES    Leo    2439    Pte    12 LHR    20R Tos 1-18    N/R    Labourer    28    Ferry Town Narrandera NSW    19-3-17    RTA 20-7-19    Ferry Town Narrandera NSW
HYNES    Martin Francis    1885    Pte    05 LHR    13R Tos 2-16 to Dvr 51Bty/13 FAB 3-16 to 119Bty 10-16 to 51Bty/13 FAB 3-18 F&B    N/R    Labourer    21    Ravensdale Qld    15-5-15    RTA 19-2-19    Clermont Qld
HYNES    Patrick Joseph    2550    Pte    12 LHR    22R tos 4 LH Bde HQ 6-18 to Dvr 9-18     N/R    Labourer    32    Cootamundra NSW    10-4-17    RTA 20-7-19    Cootamundra NSW
HYNES    Thomas    508    Pte    12 LHR    C Sqn att DSqn/6 LHR 8-15 to L/Cpl 10-15 WIA 9-11-15 L/shoulder shrapnel with 4 killed and 7 wounded either at Ryries Post or amoung the 100 men sent to Wilson's Lookout evac to hosp 11-15 (G) rtn 2-16 to T/Cpl (from royal) 4-16 to Cpl 4-16 to hosp (hernia) 5-16 rtn 5-16 to L/Sgt 4-17 to Sgt C Sqn? (from woolbank WIA) 6-17 to 4 LHTR 7-17 to hosp (TB) 9-17 RTA MU TB disch 19-6-18 (4Sqn/6 LH NELH CMF 1 year)     6 LH    Stationhand    31    Marrickville NSW    7-1-15    RTA 12-11-17    Marrickville NSW
HYNES    Thomas Bartholomew    18110    Pte    1 LHFA    30R tos Govt Hosp Suez 1-18 to 3 LHFA 6-18 (33 IR Irish Rifles CMF 3 years)     33 IR    Draper    24    Camden NSW    16-1-17    RTA 10-7-19    Camden NSW
HYNES    Thomas Sherlock    1953    Pte    11 LHR    12R to 3 LHTR 11-16 qual lewis MG 2-17 tos 4 LH MGS 2-17 WIA 29-11-17 L/Leg shot reported near Beit ur et Tahta to (med class B2) MG Trg Sqn 1-18 rtn 10-18     N/R    Butcher    20    Wolfram Camp via Cairns Qld    29-4-16    RTA 24-719    Wolfram Camp via Cairns Qld
HYNES    William John    2631    Pte    1 Remts    4R Tos B Sqn 5-16 to 5 DBD 10-16 to AVH calais 5-17 to Dvr 3 BAC 1-18 to T/Cpl 5-19 F&B    N/R    Labourer    27    Leggan NSW    10-1-16    RTA 31-5-19    Goulburn NSW
 

Take your pick, Jack while correct could be John, it was not uncommon for many men to be called Jack and have other other name then John, we have to look deeper then the Jack/John connection.

 

No non ALH soldier would have a Shoulder patch unless his unit was ALH, While an Artillery patch does look like a ALH patch, the Dark blue is at the bottom of the 1st Div AIF Artillery patch, not the top as the one shown in the photo. Which as stated a Light Horse patch does have the darker color on top and the lighter on bottom in the 5th ALHR is Light blue is on top and red on bottom, Red being the Brigade color, the 6th ALHR was Green over Red and 7th LHR being Black over Red. But we should also show that ALH Bde sub units also had the same patches like Purple for the MG Sqns, Brown for the AHFA and Dark Red for Vet units.

 

So again take your pick

 

S.B

Edited by stevebecker
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Looking at Steve’s list, John Hynes 2345 seems to me the best bet:

 

Pte  5th Light Horse Regiment  

 

16th Reinforcements(?) To Australian Artillery Training Depot(?) 

 

Arrived(?) UK July 1916

 

to A/Bdr October 1916

 

Taken on Strength as L/Cpl 1 Sect/1st Divisional Ammunition Column May 1917 


Attached 2 Casualty Clearing Station January 1918 F&B    

National Registration  Labourer    27    Rockhampton    5th October 1915    

 

Returned to Australia 1st April 1919    Claremont, Queensland.

 

NB.  It would be nice to send a copy of the photograph to the Australian War Museum for their records and access by family members.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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13 hours ago, stevebecker said:

...No non ALH soldier would have a Shoulder patch unless his unit was ALH, While an Artillery patch does look like a ALH patch, the Dark blue is at the bottom of the 1st Div AIF Artillery patch, not the top as the one shown in the photo. Which as stated a Light Horse patch does have the darker color on top and the lighter on bottom in the 5th ALHR is Light blue is on top and red on bottom, Red being the Brigade color, the 6th ALHR was Green over Red and 7th LHR being Black over Red. But we should also show that ALH Bde sub units also had the same patches like Purple for the MG Sqns, Brown for the AHFA and Dark Red for Vet units...

 

 

Steve, are you taking the effect of orthochromatic film into account when looking at how the patches in the photo versus what the known colours are? Orthochromatic film typically interprets the red/orange/yellow spectrum as unusally dark whilst the blue/purple spectrum appears unusally light, eg:

 

Orthochromatic medal ribbon comparison picture.jpg

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9 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

NB.  It would be nice to send a copy of the photograph to the Australian War Museum for their records and access by family members.

 I had intended doing that when the thread yielded more info.

I will certainly upload the pic. Thanks again for all your input.

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The photo was taken by a photographer in Weymouth. In his records on 1 April 1919 it mentions Weymouth Station and Avonmouth port where he embarked for home on the HMS Shropshire. So maybe he was based near Weymouth prior to leaving for home, where he had the photo taken, and a copy was given to Mrs and Mr Gilligan(?) who he had met locally.

Just a thought.

Martin

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38 minutes ago, tootrock said:

The photo was taken by a photographer in Weymouth. In his records on 1 April 1919 it mentions Weymouth Station and Avonmouth port where he embarked for home on the HMS Shropshire. So maybe he was based near Weymouth prior to leaving for home, where he had the photo taken, and a copy was given to Mrs and Mr Gilligan(?) who he had met locally.

Just a thought.

Martin

That certainly adds another pointer. Thanks Martin. 

 

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To add to this, I've compared the signatures on the card with those on the attestation form. It's a bit hard to do exactly because of the Jack/John difference, but the surname is broadly similar but with slight differences. In fact all through the attestation docs his signature changes. 

Given what these men suffered during service,  did signatures change over the years? 

I can post images on Monday.

 

Dave

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I think that signatures change to a degree according to a range of circumstances; if the writer is hot, or cold, their posture (space available), the writing implement (well worn or not), the quality of the ink, the mood (in a rush) and how many signatures are expected at one sitting.  Ergo, I don’t think that overmuch should be read into small differences providing that they are not noticeably stark.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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1 hour ago, tootrock said:

The photo was taken by a photographer in Weymouth. In his records on 1 April 1919 it mentions Weymouth Station and Avonmouth port where he embarked for home on the HMS Shropshire. So maybe he was based near Weymouth prior to leaving for home, where he had the photo taken, and a copy was given to Mrs and Mr Gilligan(?) who he had met locally.

Just a thought.

Martin

 
That certainly seems compelling on the surface of things, Martin.

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Just now, FROGSMILE said:

providing that they are not noticeably stark.

Not in this case. Straight down y, and s the same in all. H curly in one, less so in others.

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