121966 Sapper Thomas Lloyd Royal Engineers

[Alisonmallen62]

I have minimal info on my step great grandfather 121966 Sapper Lloyd who survived the first war but lead a sad life I think as a man who wandered and drank. Whilst he has been labelled a 'no good' I think knowledge and tolerance nowadays would cast him as a man deeply troubled. My grandfather told me Lloyd was a brave soldier and, as a soldier himself, he recognised shell shock which was untreated. Following a period of walkabout Lloyd was returning home one night during the blackout and was hit and killed by a cart. He was largely a character who was unspoken about and I would dearly love to put aside old family feelings against this man who was not dependable for my great gran and young family and they were very poor. However, he deserves recognition. I think as a Welsh miner he may have been a tunneller and I wonder if any records show he was wounded or hospitalised for shell shock. Help is very much appreciated. I have the medal card and that is it, dnt even know what he looked like. Thank you

[Stebie9173]

All the 121xxx numbers I have checked in the past for men in the Royal Engineers do indeed belong to tunnellers - usually miners specially employed to go into the Tunnelling Companies. His number appears to date from about September 1915.

Steve.

[clive_hughes]

Alisonmallen,

Where exactly did the family live around the time of the Great War? It may be possible to find him on an Absent Voters List 1918 if the town/village and address is known. Another source might be local newspapers.

Clive

[kenf48]

The service record of 121967 Hennesy, a miner aged 44 years and 10 months, who gave his address as Factory Road Hotel Bargoed has survived. I t shows he joined the RE at Chatham on the 21 September 1915 and was sent to France and the BEF as a tunneller's mate on the 30 September. His pay was two shillings and tuppence (in old money) a private in the infantry earned a basic shilling with one penny for overseas service at this time, so twice the pay.

The Depot for the RE was at Chatham, and he received just one week of basic training whereas an infantryman trained for at least 12 weeks before being sent to France. The age for infantry service was initially 30 years so he was considerably older as were other men who joined the RE at this time.

Most of the men who joined at this time went to 250 Tunnelling Company which was formed in October.

We can't assume you g-gfather served with them as he is missing from the 14-15 Star Roll (numbers either side of his show entered theatre either 5/10 or 10/10/1915). Though it's a probability, the mystery is why he was held back in the UK for at least a couple of months before going overseas.

He does not appear to have been discharged prematurely and men who enlisted around the same time as him were discharged early in 1919. The Genealogist (subscription) has a list of wounded but it's a common name so returns tens of entries.
https://www.thegenealogist.co.uk/search/master/?type=person&source=&search_type=person&master_event=Military&person_event=&fn=Thomas&phonetic_mode_fn=1&phonetic_mode_fn=1&nickname_mode=&sn=Lloyd&phonetic_mode_sn=1&phonetic_mode_sn=1&kw=&yr=1916&range=2&person_event=Casualty+List%3A+Wounded


See also the parent site http://www.1914-1918.net/tunnelcoyre.htm

Ken

[TEW]

Thegenealogist only has one Lloyd with number 121966. WO daily list 6th Sept 1917, Enlisted Aberbargoed. Probably 300 or so men of the RE on that list but from different units.

Wounded around early August 1917 back to mid-July.

Other posts on 250th Tunneling Coy.

 

 

Plugstreet Project

Dug the mines at Messines Ridge, detonated 7/6/17.

TEW

[TEW]

Looking through diaires for 250 Tunnelling Coy. RE Jan 17 to Oct 17.

Working back from 6th Sept 1917. Sept & Aug, nicely written and easy to read. July & June, not so, very feint.

No names of ORs given and only occasional mentions of 1 OR to Hospital 1 accidental drowning. No big actions June - Sept. Mainly improving dugouts and dealing with drainage.

September. In the Field

7 ORs sent to hospital.

ORs being sent to 175 Tunnelling Coy, multiple entries.

ORs going to and from 2nd Army Tunnelling Coy. Rest Camp, Malhoye.

August. La Clytte, 'Van Subway'

3 OR accidently killed.

ORs sent to hospital.

1 OR wounded in action

1 OR died of wounds. HESDIN

ORs going to and from 2nd Army Tunnelling Coy. Rest Camp, Malhoye.

Transfer 1 OR to RE Base.

Movements from 2nd Army Mines Reserve School

July. La Clytte.

Movements to 2nd Army Mines Reserve School

ORs sent to hospital. (some IDd as sick)

23/7/17. 5 Officers and 95 ORs arrived from 2nd Army Tunnelling Coy. Rest Camp, Malhoye.

23/7/17. 3 Officers and 100 ORs sent to 2nd Army Tunnelling Coy. Rest Camp, Malhoye.

2 ORs arrived from 351 Tunnelling Coy

ORs arrived from Base Depot

3 ORs receive Military Medal

1/7/17. 2 Canadian ORs KIA, 1 attached OR wounded.

June, La Clytte

Circa 10 ORs admitted hospital

Small number of ORs wounded in action.

1 OR died of wounds.

ORs arrived from Base Depot

25/6/17. 4 Officers and 100 ORs sent to 2nd Army Tunnelling Coy. Rest Camp, Malhoye.

Movements from 2nd Army Mines Reserve School

Dug the mines at Messines Ridge, detonated 7/6/17.

TEW

Nothing significant in the diary for that day.

Not a lot to tie him to 250 Tunnelling Coy. for this period. May have been sent to/from 175 or 351 Tunnelling Coy. Always possible he was one of the 'wounded in action' or 'sent to hospital'.

TEW

[Stebie9173]

No. 121960 Sapper S. S. Morris (D.C.M.) was with 184th Tunnelling Company, so there is a fair spread of units for these men - they probably went out to the R.E. Depot in France and were allocated to a unit from there.

Steve.

[TEW]

The overview from diary was that they had more Canadians and infantrymen attached for short periods. RE tunnelling Coy. men were probably few in number.

More service records needed I guess, Lloyd may have done a short stint with 250th but moved through several others by the time frame for his wound.

TEW

[TEW]

Tried looking at men who lived in Aberbargoed with service/pension records. Not a great deal of joy.

Re. Hennesey and his number/dates. 120820 Philpot, attested 4/1/16 service record says Tunneller's Mate then transfer to 170th.

120960 Richard Ware, 257th Coy. Soldiers' Effects

Several starting 1362**, 1363** but all only listed at Tunneller's Mate, no Coy. Given until they move to 3rd Prov Coy. Before discharge.

132111, Goodall in 253rd Coy.

Quite a spread.

TEW

[Alisonmallen62]

Just amazing info thank you and I have struggled to find this. Tom Lloyd would have most likely been living in Aberbargoed because my great grandma was at 50 Church Street in 1916 when her husband George Moss died. I have wondered if he was a friend because he was pretty much around near to that time. He had one daughter in 1920 and quite possibly a son in 1916 with her but no one ever discussed this and if he was toms son not George moss then possibly something was going on prior to moss death. I was told previously that he may well have been Tom Lloyd of blackwood who was involved in a mine rescue in 1907 but I believe he originated from Camarthanshire. There are no photos and no one knows anything except my mum maintains her father (moss) and his sisters were all small and dark and the boy and girl who were Lloyds tall and fair assuming they were like him. His medal is in possession of my uncle but there is only one we think they may have been sold. I too have been through many soldiers with 121 so it is likely he was tunnelling and for me I just think he wandered and worked on farms possibly because he became claustrophobic so the open was safer. Such a shame we know so little. Is there info about his wound please and how do I access that?

[TEW]

No more info on his wound other than date I posted which at least confirms he was wounded abroad and was serving with RE at that time.

There are Tunnelling Coy. diaries, some occasionally mention men by name for promotions, wounds, transfers, misdemeanours or awards. Not to get your hopes up too much, it is only a slim chance and that hinges on finding which unit he was in.

It seems probable that he may have moved about from Coy. to Coy. There are around 170 Tunnelling Coy. diaries and the service records I've seen only state 'Tunneller's Mate' and don't give a Coy. until they are either transferred or discharged.

I can try the diaries for the Coys. Suggested so far. Another option is local papers, if he came home hospitalised he may have been reported.

Assuming a Coy. could be found for him for a particular timeframe then at least you could read where he was, what they were doing etc

There are no online hospital/patient resources other than those already checked but more will probably become available in the future.

Have you tried findmypast? They are better at indexing than ancestry. There are a few Thomas Lloyds but you may need to go through every sheet for each one.

TEW

[Hywyn]

Alisonmallen,

Where exactly did the family live around the time of the Great War? It may be possible to find him on an Absent Voters List 1918 if the town/village and address is known. Another source might be local newspapers.

Clive

He is not on the Spring 1919 AVL at Aberbargoed.

[Alisonmallen62]

I think he may have been living in Bargoed or Blackwood very close by or be entered on documents for 'Bedwelty'

[Hywyn]

I've now looked through the Bedwellty Division (covers those areas mentioned) and not turned him up.

It's the Spring 1919 issue so he might have been discharged.

As TEW points out upthread he is on a casualty list that is dated in September 1917. The placename against him then is Aberbargoed. This denotes that this is the address for his declared next of kin.

[kenf48]

I've now looked through the Bedwellty Division (covers those areas mentioned) and not turned him up.

It's the Spring 1919 issue so he might have been discharged.

.

Most of those who joined with him were discharged In February 1919 according to the 14-15 Star roll, as miners they would be amongst the first to go. Still intrigued as to why he didn't go overseas with the rest of them, but I guess we're unlikely to know.

Ken

[TEW]

Not sure if it's the right man but there is a Thomas Lloyd age 24, collier, 24 Bedwelty Rd, Aberbargoed on 1911 census.

If so then his age is not a factor.

I thought it odd that:

121967 Hennesy joined up 21/9/15

120820 Phillpot, joined up 4/1/16

Previous experience has shown that miners could find themselves embarking pretty quick, much less drill and bayonet practise than others. Could Lloyd have attested with Hennesy but put on reserve to keep mine going and then mobilized in 1916?

Looking through 170th diary at present.

TEW

[TEW]

257th Tunneling Coy. diary. 1/5/1917 - 31/8/1917

WO95/552/3

No, sorry he's not mentioned in this diary but I have to add this diary has weekly lists of men KIA, wounded, sick, arriving. leaving, promoted, remustered . Types of wound given, arrived from, went to, etc. There are 16 lists in this dairy, one for 29th July 1917 missing.

These are:

Officers and men who have become casuals, been transferred or joined since last report. Some have continuation sheets annotated attached to AFB 213

Some lists have eg To ADS Nieuport, wounded - gas

12/8/17 has as reinforcements from No. 1 REBD

121521 Fairhurst

121911 Lawler

121574 Barnes

19/8/17 has as reinforcement from No. 1 REBD

121897 Brown

NB, no 121*** numbers before Aug17

Otherwise the predominate numbers are in 158*** range followed by 139***, 146***, 147***, 175*** but quite a spread of other numbers including 5 digit ones 86***.

And a note with 26/8/17 that 311703, 311704, 311705 were new RE numbers being given to men previously attached from infantry, possibly under AO 204/1916. Names, previous units and numbers given.

Shame about the 29/7/17 list missing but I think Lloyd was not with 257th May-Aug 1917, at least it can be discounted but. Hopefully other diaires will be similar.

I'll have to check again to to where the RE men were coming from or going to as other tunneling Coys are mentioned.

TEW

[TEW]

And from 170th Tunneling Coy WO95/336/4, July17-March18

121957 Hill, wounded 19/7/17

121590 Stockdale wounded 12/8/17

TEW

[Alisonmallen62]

Just fascinating. In reply to the Aberbargoed address Lloyd was born in 1876 and I think he was actually from Camarthanshire. His father was also Thomas as I have that info on a 1920 marriage cert. So I have no idea what brought him to live in that area but most probably work. In 1911 he would have been 35 assuming his date of birth was correct on that cert. there is a medal card for him which made me think it was around 1916 he joined up. My uncle has that medal which my grandfather must have kept but that is all there is. However, in 1920 he had a daughter Irene whose surname was moss. It is possible her birth cert says otherwise but she is on ancestry as moss. It seems my great gran was so disgusted with lloyds lack of involvement that she made sure all the children were against him and they all went by Moss her first husband's surname. Irene died when I was a child as I was actually with my grandfather the day he was told. She would be my grandfathers half sister. She had two sons Geoffrey and Peter Bailey and I have just found one on ancestry. Doesn't look active. They are in Chester I believe. Wish I could find them as they may know more but somehow I think Mrs Lloyd did quite a job of wiping out his existence. Where is his record of being wounded found could I access it? What was the wound? All just amazing thank you

[TEW]

Alison

I think a Tunnelling Coy. diary is the only thing that may mention him or his wound. The one for 257th Coy is very good so I don't think he was with them.

184th is pretty good at naming wounded ORs, so I think that can be discounted at well.

NB 121700 Sgt. Thomas named as wounded under shell fire 21/4/17

170th is mainly a list of mining reports, orders and maps. 2 men with close numbers in post 18.

250th is nicely written but only mentions 'x number of men wounded' no names given.

The four diaries mention other tunnelling coys. the men were going to or coming from. I can look at a few more but there are too many. Some are not complete, 171 and 251 Coy have missing pages. If he was with them that information is lost.

The men with numbers 121*** were being sent to different tunnelling Coys. as when needed. Otherwise they may be back at RE base depot, field Coys. etc

Sometimes the Tunnelling Coys. only had 10 tunnellers and 10 tunnellers' mates with another 40 men attached from infantry just to dig a dugout or make a dressing station. At other times there may be 100 tunnellers etc.

TEW

[Alisonmallen62]

Thank you

[Alisonmallen62]

hello, I just wondered if it was possible that any further info was found on Thomas Lloyd?  I have found that there are two medals for him which a family member has so am getting photos soon.  I have not located anything more on ancestry or find my past.  

 

[Alisonmallen62]

I have posted about this soldier previously as he was very likely a tunneller.  However, whilst I have some military info I do not know what happened to him to be on a casualty list of 6/9/17.  I do not have fold 3 access and there is now pension detail for him.  He remains someone we know little about although he was my step great grandfather.  He was hit by a car and killed in 1939 just prior to the census being taken but I believe he had became a coal haulier by then but where remains a mystery as he was suffering from alcoholism and was on walkabout - likely brought in by shell shock.  If anyone can assist I would be very grateful. Thank you

[George Rayner]

This quote is within FMP and Lives of the First World War

The wanderer: Tom Lloyd spent much of his post war life with shell shock.. Miner, Tunneller: It is not definite but it is believed Tom Lloyd was part of the 184th Tunnelling Company. He has been quoted in Beneath Flanders Fields. He enlisted in Aberbargoed and was in France in 1916, wounded in 1917. I can only imagine that the tunneller's life and likely his involvement in tunnels for Arras, maybe Vimy, all contributed to his state of mind when he came home.

 

George

[George Rayner]

Do you have your gt grandmother's name, age residence please?

 

George