AIF and NZEF deaths on hospital ships

[Keith_history_buff]

On 28/01/2020 at 17:28, alantwo said:

The movements of hospital ships to and from Mudros are recorded in the Embarkation Officer's War Diary, which I've listed below. The document is typed so hopefully there will not be too many of my usual spelling errors. In my particular interest of artillerymen I haven't found the diary 100% accurate, but it may help to fill-in one or two gaps. It does have a number of ships that are not listed on the Helles Memorial, a photograph of which I recently posted elsewhere in this forum.

 

I hope it is of interest.

 

Regards

Alan

 

A very comprehensive list of hospital ship movements.

I have been looking at the details for Adrien Gatti, an Italian in the French Foreign Legion. On 9 June 1915 he died of wounds 'à bord du transport hospital "Canada". '  Would this be a French hospital ship? I cannot trace a ship of this name at Gallipoli from some initial searches of English language source material. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Thanks in advance 
Keith

[alantwo]

Keith

 

Assuming I have the same ship, I don't think HMT Canada was a hospital ship. From the limited information I have, it was being used to transport troops and stores before and after the event you mention. I'll send you a pm with what I have.

 

Regards

Alan

[Keith_history_buff]

Here is a link to a list of some of those soldiers who died of their wounds whilst aboard the French hospital ship Canada:
https://forum.pages14-18.com/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=44258&start=30#p345727

[Bryn]

I'vve identified only 3 AIF soldiers (including one from the Royal Australian Naval Bridging Train) stated to have died aboard "Canada." In only one of their records is the ship referred to, (and then only in a single document), as 'HS Canada.' In all documents in the other two records the ship is referred to only as "Canada."

 

The three soldiers are:

 

1907 Private Charles STEAD (Served as ACKMAN), 7th Battalion AIF. Died of wounds aboard 'Canada', 13 August 1915, aged 22. No Known Grave. [This soldier is a bit of a mystery. He apparently just disappeared, and was declared illegally absent since September 1915 until a Court of Inquiry in 1919 determined he had died of wounds on or about 13th August 1915. His B103 shows he was aboard 'Canada' on that day when it arrived in Alexandria).

 

686 Private Ferdinand William CLIFTON, 9th Battalion AIF. Died of sunstroke aboard 'Canada', 26/08/1915, aged 40. No Known Grave.

 

14 A.B. Sapper Thomas MCDONNELL, 1 Royal Australian Naval Bridging Train AIF. Died of enteric fever at sea aboard 'Canada', 27/08/1915, aged 28. No Known Grave.

 

 

 

[Keith_history_buff]

Hi Bryn,

Thanks for sharing this info.

 

Regards
Keith

[frev]

On 09/08/2020 at 13:44, Bryn said:

 

1907 Private Charles STEAD (Served as ACKMAN), 7th Battalion AIF. Died of wounds aboard 'Canada', 13 August 1915, aged 22. No Known Grave. [This soldier is a bit of a mystery. He apparently just disappeared, and was declared illegally absent since September 1915 until a Court of Inquiry in 1919 determined he had died of wounds on or about 13th August 1915. His B103 shows he was aboard 'Canada' on that day when it arrived in Alexandria).

 

 

Bryn – I find it hard to ignore a mystery, and I agree Charles Stead certainly is!

It really doesn’t appear that he died on board the Canada – and there’s even a possibility that he somehow managed to get to France before once again disappearing….

So, slightly side-tracking from the purpose of this thread – some info of interest:

 

He originally enlisted 20/10/1914 under his real name as Charles Stead (giving his age as 21 – he was actually only 18) – he was struck off strength 16/2/1915 as a deserter from 5/1/1915, but had already re-enlisted as Walter Ackman on the 14/1/1915 (giving his age as 22) – Pte 1907, 7^th Bn (5^th Rfts).

 

Percy Alfred Ward enlisted a few days before ‘Ackman’ and was also allotted to the 5^th Rfts of the 7^th Bn – he gave the following information to the Red Cross:

Red Cross Wounded & Missing file:

“Informant was in trenches with Ackman at “Lone Pine”.  Afterwards met him on board Aux. Hospital “Canada”.  *Could not speak – speechless.  Informant was summoned to Orderly Room on board and gave information.  “Canada” disembarked troops at Alexandria and Informant went on to Cairo.  Ackman was kept in Hospital at Alexandria.  Informant can give no further details.”

Informant: Sgt Ward

[Percy Alfred Ward – Sgt 2047/4513, 7^th Bn (5^th Rfts) / 23^rd Bn – bomb wound arm & head Lone Pine 8-9/8/15, adm CCS 9/8/15 – arrived Alexandria ex Canada 13/8/1915, adm 1^st AGH, Cairo]

 

*‘Ackman’ had also received a bomb wound to the head

 

His Uncle and his mother supposedly corresponded with him – in France – in 1916 (?)

 

Letters from his service file:

Letter (p.64) from Frank Rudebeck (Cousin), dated June 1918: (extracts)

“This lad wrote to his Uncle Mr Frank Stead of Broken Hill (now deceased) about 18 months ago from France & was then doing well.  This letter was forwarded to his mother Mrs Ray, & from that she found out he had enlisted in an assumed name, so it is ridiculous to say he has not been traced since Lone Pine Charge.

…& it seems strange where all the correspondence that has been sent to this lad has gone during the last 3 years if he is not receiving them.  I am inclined to think firmly he is alive & well.”

[Francis Alfred RUDEBECK – Pte 3471, 14^th Bn & 4^th Pioneers - died 7/5/1921 TB, at McLeod Sanatorium (result of war service)]

 

Letter (p.69) from his mother Mrs Eva Lydia Ray, dated 20/2/1917:

“Would you kindly furnish me with any reports that may come through concerning my son Pte Walter Ackman, No. 1907, 5^th Refts, 7^th Battalion, AIF Abroad.

Not having heard anything from him for some months.  I am very anxious about him.”

 

 

[Charles Stead was born in 1896 at Chiltern, Vic to Eva Lydia STEAD (unmarried, father’s name not given).  Eva notes in a letter that his father supposedly died in Sth Africa in 1909 – Eva married Jas Edmund RAY in 1911 – divorced 1918/19 (re-married ELIOTT 1940) – she died in 1977, aged 97]

 

 

I guess maybe we’ll ‘never’ know what really happened to him…

Cheers, Frev

 

[alantwo]

There were two ships of the name Canada, one a HMT and the other a French Hospital Ship that Keith found and has highlighted; the HMT did not become a HS in the manner that Assaye did. Whilst digging around for the second ship a sketch came to light at the Imperial War Museum of Mudros Bay on 17^th July 1915 and it shows 4 Hospital Ships, of which one was French, in the bay at the same time. For anyone interested the link is

https://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/13206

 

Alan

[frev]

I also did some digging around in regard to the ship Canada – and came up with the following snippets:

 

Western Mail (Perth, WA), Fri 23 Apr 1915 (p.22):

Captain F.W. Corner, R.N.R., who is well known in Australia as the commander of the White Star training ship Mersey, has been appointed to H.M.T. Canada, and is on special service in that ship in the Ryde Roads.

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/37424734

[Capt Frederick William Corner – b.9/7/1864 England, died Bata, England 1924]

 

 

Evening News (Sydney, NSW), Tue 4 May 1915 (p.4):

THE LOSS OF THE BOUVET

……………………………………………..

Torpedo boats are dragging along the shores of the Dardanelles for the bodies of the drowned sailors, which are placed aboard the hospital ships Canada and Soudan as soon as they are found.

…………………………………………………………………………

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/115818981

 

 

Thomas Gardner (Pte 551, 7^th Bn) was shown as transferred to Fleet Sweeper 8/6/1915 from Gallipoli Peninsula, and disembarked at Malta on the 14/6/1915 from HMT “Canada”

 

Percy Eden Pinson (Pte 178, 9^th LH) was adm to Sweeper “Clacton” 7/6/15 from Gallipoli (with 83 wounds!) – transferred to “Aragon” 8/6/15 – disembarked from “Canada” at Malta 14/6/15

Letter: https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/210101392

 

 

Young Witness (NSW), Fri 23 Jul 1915 (p.4):

SOLDIER’S LETER

Writing from on board s.s. Canada on June 13^th, to his mother, Mrs J. Scott, Nasmyth street, Young, Gunner D.J. (“Chub”) Murphy, describes his experiences at the Dardanelles ………………….

….I was wounded in the thigh by a bullet on 6^th June, last Sunday.  I was then taken to the beach, and put on a hospital ship and we expect to arrive at Malta to-day, ……………………………

I am glad to say it is an Australian hospital ship we are on, and the Sisters are all very nice.  When our boat was leaving the beach at Gallipoli we were fired at by the Turks artillery.  Luckily we were not hit.  ………………………….

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/113671514

 

 

The Cumberland Argus and ………. (Parramatta, NSW), Sat 6 Nov 1915 (p.10):

Wounded Australians in England

Writing to his parents from Princess Club Hospital, London, under date September 12, Private Horatio Nelson (Auburn) says: ……………………..

I arrived here with a number of Australians on Friday night last.  We had quite an exciting time coming across.  We were transferred to four different vessels, and at last embarked on the s.s. Canada, a splendid liner.  It was not a hospital ship, so we had an escort of destroyers with us.  We had a great deal of manoeuvring dodging submarines.  We called at Lemnos Island, Malta and Gibraltar.  …………………………………..

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/86096702

 

 

The Kyogle Examiner (NSW), Sat 20 Dec 1919 (p.6):

A CURSORY HISTORY OF THE TRIALS TRIBULATIONS AND TRIUMPHS OF THE ANZAC MOUNTED DIVISION

……………………………………………………………………

Thus, when I saw a chance of joining a small mounted A.A.M.C. unit to go attached to the L.H., I took the opportunity, and on the 24^th August in the year of our Lord one thousand and fourteen, I found myself a duly attested member of that unit in camp in Sydney.

………………………………………….

Later we embarked on H.M.T. Itonus, on which charming boat, through a hatchway around which our quarters were, they were loading steel rails.  I spent most of the night in Alexandria, not returning until the loading was finished and sleep possible.  Just before the boat sailed half of us were taken off and put on board H.M.T. Canada, a very decent boat, in which we went to Lemnos, picked up a load of wounded and took them to Malta, where we remained a week, awaiting a boat to take us back to Alexandria.  [this appears to be about June 1915]

…………………………………………

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/234142565

War Diary of MC Evans: http://acms.sl.nsw.gov.au/_transcript/2013/D16133/a4332.htm

[Maurice Cann Evans – Pte 37, 1^st LH Fld Amb]

 

 

 

Bryn – another one for your list:

 

SHELLEY, William Patrick Joseph – Pte 2009, 8^th Bn

Died 5/9/1915 of Dysentery at sea on H.M.S. “Canada”, buried at Gibraltar (p.4 of SR)

 

 

Cheers, Frev

 

[alantwo]

10 hours ago, frev said:

SHELLEY, William Patrick Joseph – Pte 2009, 8^th Bn

 

Died 5/9/1915 of Dysentery at sea on H.M.S. “Canada”, buried at Gibraltar (p.4 of SR)

 

Frev

 

As it happens I have taken a photograph of the grave at North Front Cemetery, Gibraltar.

 

Alan

 

Edited 12 August , 2020 by alantwo

[frev]

14 hours ago, alantwo said:

 

Frev

 

As it happens I have taken a photograph of the grave at North Front Cemetery, Gibraltar.

 

Alan

 

 

 

Thanks for sharing Alan - no doubt he is rarely visited!

[Bryn]

Thanks Frev and Alan. As always, great information.

 

Frev, I agree that there may be a lot more to the 'Stead / Ackman mystery,' and I'd be willing to bet that's probably how he wanted it! On the other hand, he had received a head wound.... But if he remained serving, you'd expect there to be some official trace.

[Bryn]

Frev, thanks very much for alerting me to SHELLY. Thanks to that I've discovered a fault in my database. The database is arranged in 'Tables' of different information (eg Died at Anzac, Died in Egypt, England, Gibraltar, Malta etc); and these are all drawn together by 'relationships' between them based on a 'Prime Key'. It seems my 'Gibraltar' Table is not showing up in the Database's main viewer, so something must be wrong in the relationship. I'll have to spend some time 'under the bonnet' trying to work out why that is.

[Bryn]

French ships, including hospital ships (and Russian 'Askold'):

 

 

[Guest]

On 29/08/2020 at 13:20, Bryn said:

French ships, including hospital ships (and Russian 'Askold'):

 

 

 

you probably have their names but, if not, I have a few soldiers from the 26th AI Bn who died on board hospital ships during the Gallipoli campaign.  ciao.

[Guest]

On 03/02/2020 at 02:49, Bryn said:

My list so far of AIF deaths aboard HMHS Dunluce Castle:

920 Private John Cyril MORRIS, 26th Battalion AIF. Died of wounds (gunshot wound to abdomen and chest / lung) aboard Dunluce Castle, 22/09/1915.

 

John was in C Company.  Full name: John Cyril Ashton Morris.

 

Some additional reference material relating to John.

 

26th Battalion unit war diary, September 1915, page 4

No. 920 Pte J. C. Morris of C Coy was seriously wounded by [a] bullet from a sniper while going on fatigue duty at 8.35 am.

 

Examiner (Launceston, Tas), Tuesday 5 October 1915, page 4

PERSONAL PARTICULARS.

Mr. E. Morris, of Invermay, has received a wire from the Defence Department, stating that his son, Private J. C. Morris, had been wounded. Pte. Morris. who was a member or the 40th Battery, A.F.A., enlisted in Launceston, and left for the front with the 26th Battalion on June 29.

 

Examiner (Launceston, Tas), Wednesday 6 October 1915, page 1

BIRTHS, MARRIAGES, DEATHS,

MORRIS.—On the 22nd September, 1915, on hospital ship, of wounds received in action at the front, John Cyril Ashton Morris, 26th Battalion A.I.F., beloved son of. E. and F. E. Morris, Ferrall street, Invermay, aged 19 years and 5 months. Deeply regretted.

 

Examiner (Launceston, Tas), Friday 22 September 1916, page 1

BIRTHS, MARRIAGES, DEATHS, FUNERAL and IN MEMORIAM NOTICES.

MORRIS.-In loving memory of our dear brother John Cyril Morris, who died of wounds received in action on September, 22nd, 1915. A Gallipoli Hero, Dearly Loved and Sadly Missed. —Inserted by his loving sister and brother-in-law, V. and A. E. Higgins, Mayne-street, Invermay.

[Bryn]

That would be most appreciated, Jay; thanks very much.

[Guest]

Hi! This is my first post so please excuse any inelegancies. I have read through all four pages of the deaths on hospital ships but cannot find a reference to George E. Bradford. I am doing some research work for a couple of sites/institutions in Rookwood Cemetery (Sydney) and found the memorial tablet for George and also Ernest B. Dunne who does appear on your list. Does anyone have any information on George E. Bradford please?

 

[frev]

1 hour ago, Mannheim said:

Hi! This is my first post so please excuse any inelegancies. I have read through all four pages of the deaths on hospital ships but cannot find a reference to George E. Bradford. I am doing some research work for a couple of sites/institutions in Rookwood Cemetery (Sydney) and found the memorial tablet for George and also Ernest B. Dunne who does appear on your list. Does anyone have any information on George E. Bradford please?

 

 

Hi Mannheim – and welcome to the forum.

 

Unfortunately the National Archives is having problems displaying the soldier’s service records at the moment – but according to a post attached to his photo on flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/statelibraryofnsw/14485105065 he died on the hospital ship Rewa

 

You can check this against his record when they come back on-line: https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=3108301

 

Other details and photos for George Edward Bradford can be found at the following links:

https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/97597

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/R1670352

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/100297594

https://www.forbesadvocate.com.au/story/3041132/family-seeks-out-bradfords-tragic-story/

 

And for his cousin Ernest Bryant Dunne:

https://recordsearch.naa.gov.au/SearchNRetrieve/Interface/ViewImage.aspx?B=3528706

https://discoveringanzacs.naa.gov.au/browse/person/155746

https://www.awm.gov.au/collection/R1724393

https://trove.nla.gov.au/newspaper/article/100298053

 

 

Cheers, Frev

 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Mannheim said:

I am doing some research work for a couple of sites/institutions in Rookwood Cemetery (Sydney) and found the memorial tablet for George and also Ernest B. Dunne who does appear on your list. 

 

 

If I may be so bold in asking, but what research work are you doing?  I ask because several soldiers from the 26th Australian Infantry Battalion (my area of interest) are buried at Rookwood.  Once I get the chance, I intend taking photos of their gravesites and adding them to the Discovering Anzacs, VWMA et el sites. cheers.

[Guest]

Thanks, frev, for such a prompt and helpful response. Just what I was looking for. 

And Jay26thBn, I have been doing some locating of gravesites for WW1 Australian War Graves in England/UK. I photograph headstones in Rookwood as a favour for one of the contributors who doesn't live as close to Rookwood as I do. My photos are just an addition when they prove useful as obviously the soldiers themselves are buried in the UK. I also take photographs for Monuments Australia for the same reason, although the cemetery main office is closed at the moment due to COVID. There is a register of WW1 graves at Rookwood (https://www.rookwoodcemetery.com.au/assets/documents/Remembrance_ebook_2020.pdf) and the main office will give you a map of where any deceased is buried but I suspect there are unmapped WW1memorials in the cemetery and spend my 'exercise' time poking through the undergrowth. I already have more than a few photographs of WW1 memorials so if you give me a name I will have a look and see if I already have what you're looking for.

[Lawryleslie]

Slightly off topic. Lyn MacDonald's book Roses of No Man's Land is the harrowing account of British Nurses drafted from Edwardian Hospitals into the horrors of Great War Battlefields. A chapter is dedicated to the hospital ships evacuating casualties from Gallipoli. It describes the unimaginable conditions on these ships in the early months of the campaign with shortages of everything from beds and medicines to medical staff.