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Susie English

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I am trying to trace my grandfather's military record.  Is it possible to do this with his name, date of birth and location in 1913?  I have very few other details except heresay. Am I wasting my time?

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14 minutes ago, Susie English said:

Am I wasting my time?

 

Not necessarily :)

 

Post what you have and you never know what the brains trust here can turn up. Possibly you have a bit more information as well - like place of birth, parents, when \ if a marriage took place and birth dates and places of children of that marriage.

 

Are you certain he actually served in the armed forces?

 

Cheers,

Peter

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Thank you so much for replying.  Yes, I have a date of marriage, address at the time.  I know when he died.  The rest is a problem.  I always believed he was a sergeant in WW1.  I was told he was badly injured, nearly died and my grandmother was shipped out to him in France to give permission for his leg to be amputated (or see him before he died).  it was gangrenous.  My grandmother was pregnant with her first child - so had to be 1915.  As I remember him in the 60/70s, he was missing two fingers and he had a massive cavern in his leg....as if they had dug the gangrene out.  I was told my brother had been given his medals and had sold them - grrrr.  One of his medals was a special one, a cross of some kind.    But all that could be untrue...how would I know?  That's why I asked.  Because I know he was 19 in 1913 when he married and he is listed as a miner.  I have him on censuses etc.  But can find absolutely nothing on his war record.  Some of the accounts - a wife being shipped to France seem far-fetched....  I have no photos of him in uniform...but my brother could have got those as well...  I just don't know :-/

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My Grandfather's details:

Edward Smith

D/O/B - 7/3/94

Place - St Helens Lancashire

Father - Henry Smith

Mother - Mary

Wife (13/12/13 marriage) - Hannah Barton

1st child - Eveline born last quarter of 1915

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...and was that link for me?  I have no idea what regiment he was in, although most people from St Helens went into the South Lancs regiment.  There is an Edward Smith with them that won the VC but it wasn't him.

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It may take some time to look for records as he has an unusal name! If he married before the war his marriage cert should show his occupationand whether he was already in the services.in the meantime i'll see what I can find

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That is very kind of you.  I have his marriage certificate. It says 'miner'.  I think he must have joined up just for the war and not a soldier by profession.  Thanks again.  This means a lot to me.  I am finding it very emotional going through all the history.  We owe them so much!  If my grandfather had died of his injuries, I wouldn't even be here!

 

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Only got 7 hits for his name but none of those records give enough info to ID himWill try again tomorrow.

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1 hour ago, Susie English said:

My Grandfather's details:

Edward Smith

D/O/B - 7/3/94

Place - St Helens Lancashire

Father - Henry Smith

Mother - Mary

Wife (13/12/13 marriage) - Hannah Barton

1st child - Eveline born last quarter of 1915

 

Eveline may be a bit early for when he may have served, but if he was in the Army as you believe at that point then on her birth certificate fathers occupation should show rank and regiment \ corps as a minimum, and sometimes more. If they had any more children during the Great War, (or sadly if any of them died), then once again fathers' occupation details might help you.

Just had a look - is the Elizabeth Smith, mothers maiden name Barton, registered with the Civil Authorities im the Prescot District of Lancashire, (which included St Helens) in Q1 of 1918, one of theirs?

 

Additionally being able to tie him down to a locality later in the war brings up the possibility of trying to track him down via the 1918 / 1919 Absent Voters Lists - see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

The link for St Helens on that webpage is broken - it should be http://www.sthelenstownshipsfhs.org.uk/ (under "Publication" and then category "Military").

If you have access to the likes of FindMyPast and Ancestry it may be worth trying to find him to confirm he remained in the St Helens area before parting with any cash - electoral registers from the early 1920's turn up on both as far as I'm aware, (sorry - don't subscribe so can't check). The quality of Military information on the AVL's varies considerably, and of course if he had alread been medically discharged then you won't find anything.

 

I would also think with the injuries described there would have been a pension, certainly at first. It may well be that there is a Pension Ledger Card for him - basic details on Ancestry, actual document on Ancestry's sister site Fold3. Also may be that one of those medals was the Silver War Badge.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/campaign-medal-records/records-of-the-silver-war-badge/

 

If you are resident in the UK then your local public library will almost certainly have a subscription to the British Newspaper Archive and most likely either Ancestry or FindMyPast.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

 

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There is a sjt Edward Smith West lancs Divisional Royal Engineers, A territorial Regiment. Enlistment given as 3/9/14 at t elens. An  address of 55 Cla????? street is given. The form has writing worse than a doctors! Does the partial address mean anything to you?

Edited by johnboy
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Ancestry has his death

Name: Edward Smith
Death Age: 82
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1894
Registration Date: Oct 1976
[Nov 1976] 
[Dec 1976] 
Registration Quarter: Oct-Nov-Dec
Registration district: St Helens
Inferred County: Lancashire

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=7579&h=49567998&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=JrD2436&_phstart=successSource

 

I would assume! So a starting point to work back from

 

George

 

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You described one of the medals as cross shaped. Would it have been similar to this.

 

photo

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Wow what helpful responses!!!  What a great site. Have to go out now but am enthralled with this search so had to pop on. Will answer everyone later.  Just a thought though.  In the early hours, I discovered an Edward Smith in the Lancashire Fusiliers.  His part record and dates match as he was injured in 1915.  Is there any way of finding a date of birth from a regimental number (its listed as 4656)so I can see if it's him?  Also, if a 19/20 year old joined the army for war in 1914, could he possibly become a sergeant Major by mid/late 1915???? It seems maybe this person was a longer serving soldier to me. Will get back later.  Thanks for all your help!!!

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That ES was wounded in the Boer War 1900 so unlikely to be the right man!

 

George

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11 hours ago, johnboy said:

There is a sjt Edward Smith West lancs Divisional Royal Engineers, A territorial Regiment. Enlistment given as 3/9/14 at t elens. An  address of 55 Cla????? street is given. The form has writing worse than a doctors! Does the partial address mean anything to you?

 

I remember Claughton Street in the middle of town?

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Ancestry has him in 1939 Register at 39 Wood St, St Helens

 

smith.jpg.a1cf7bd7a08a0cc2a26322e154ae0b53.jpg

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12 hours ago, johnboy said:

An  address of 55 Cla????? street is given

 

That address is in fact Chapel St, it is written in later papers if you read the full service record,and I do not think it is your grandfather as , although the father is Henry, there is no marriage noted (which there should have been)

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The Medal Index Card to one Edward Smith 4656 Lancashire Fusiliers, (as suggested by the OP) went through ranks to Warrant Officer II, so there is a possibility that the quote “medal,...... a cross of some kind” was in fact an award of the Military Cross.

Edited by Knotty
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19 hours ago, Susie English said:

My Grandfather's details:

Edward Smith

D/O/B - 7/3/94

Place - St Helens Lancashire

Father - Henry Smith

Mother - Mary

 

11 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Ancestry has his death

Name: Edward Smith
Death Age: 82
Birth Date: 7 Mar 1894
Registration Date: Oct 1976
[Nov 1976] 
[Dec 1976] 

 

4 hours ago, corisande said:

Ancestry has him in 1939 Register at 39 Wood St, St Helens

 

smith.jpg.a1cf7bd7a08a0cc2a26322e154ae0b53.jpg

 

Just to cover off the basics – a child born on the 7th March 1894 is going to turn up in either the Q1 1894 or the Q2 1894 registers. You had 42 days after the event to register the birth and it will then appear in the quarter it is registered, which is not neccesarily the quarter in which the birth occurred.

And a child born in St Helens would be recorded in the Prescot Civil Registration District.

 

A check of the Prescot births for those two quarters’ shows only one birth of an EDWARD SMITH. It was in Q2. There are no middle names and by the looks of things no instances in the civil records where any other forenames were recorded as being used.

 

This needs to be taken into account when identifying any potential matches in the military records.

 

His mothers’ maiden name was Wilson.

 

The most likely match on the 1901 Census of England & Wales is a 7 year old Edward Smith, born Sutton, Lancashire. He was recorded living at 3 Highfield Street, Sutton, St Helens. This was the household of his parents, Henry, (aged 51, an Engine Driver Loco at a Glass Works, born Liverpool) and Mary, (aged 50, born Sutton, Lancashire). Other unmarried children recorded living with them are:

William, aged 21, born Sutton, Labourer in a Sheet Glass Works

David, aged 17, born Sutton, Bricklayers Labourer

Arthur, aged 15, born Sutton, Labourer in a Sheet Glass Works

Annie, aged 11, born Sutton

Phoebe, aged 7, born Sutton

Elizabeth, aged 4, born Sutton.

 

For avoldance of doubt, the Civil Parish of Sutton was covered by the Civil Registration District of Prescot. Additionally, according to UKBMD, Sutton was abolished in 1894 as a Civil Parish and merged with St. Helens.

https://www.ukbmd.org.uk/reg/districts/prescot.html

 

The nearest match for those details on the 1911 Census of England & Wales is an 18 year old Coal Mine Labourer, born St Helens, that both the Genealogy sources I use for UK Census lookups has transcribed as “Eduard” Smith.  As all the main Genealogy sites seem to have started from the same original transcription service, I suspect FindMyPast and Ancestry could well have the same thing. Looking at the handwriting it could also be read as Edward.

 

“Eduard” Smith was recorded as a Boarder at 8 Factory Row, Ravenhead, St Helens. This was the first census where the return was made by the householder rather than a census taker going door to door, so I tend to be even a bit more lenient with the accuracy of the information given, particularly when it comes from the likes of a landlord or an employer.

 

Other boarders in the household included a 62 year old widower, Henry Smith, a Labourer in a Glass Works and a 15 year old “Nurse Girl” Elizabeth Smith. Both are shown as born St Helens. No way of knowing if they are all related, but if they are that has elements in common with Edwards father and youngest sister from the 1901 census.

 

So key points

-        The Edward Smith being looked for has no other forenames

-        Place of birth may be recorded as Sutton rather than St Helens on military records.

-        Mother unlikely to be recorded among the next of kin

-        At least three older brothers who might have served. Any surviving service records for them might list Edward amongst the next of kin.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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Thank you very much for this. I am on Ancestry.com and Findmypast and found these records but just keep hitting a brick wall when it comes to military.  It looks like some of the records are outsourced to a private American company and I can't really go throwing any more money at it :-/  I have found a military record that matches everything but obviously need to verify the date of birth as I only have a service number. It is in the Lancashire Fusiliers and number is:  4656.  The dates match but I don't know how to find the date of birth!  Thank you again for all this!

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