Joseph Neal - cavalry

[Jake maxwell]

This is my great grandad Joseph neal he was from Leicester and we know nothing about him other than the fact he was in the cavalry can anyone help? 

[ss002d6252]

I've amended the title so that some of our more 'horsey' people will see it.

Do you know his age, place of birth etc ?

Craig

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

I think you need to dig up more information before looking into his military career

Full name, date of birth, address, next of kin, occupation etc etc.

[petwes]

By the way welcome to the forum.

There are not that many J Neal's who have medal Index Cards. Do you know whether he served overseas? Do you have his medals? If you do his name regiment and service number will be engraved around the rim. Is he definitely spelt Neal or was  it sometimes Neale?

 

Peter

P.S. Did he survive the war?

Edited 21 January , 2020 by petwes

[Jake maxwell]

On 21/01/2020 at 16:52, ss002d6252 said:

I've amended the title so that some of our more 'horsey' people will see it.

Do you know his age, place of birth etc ?

Craig

 

On 21/01/2020 at 16:52, ss002d6252 said:

I've amended the title so that some of our more 'horsey' people will see it.

Do you know his age, place of birth etc ?

Craig

We know he was from Leicester 

[Jake maxwell]

On 21/01/2020 at 17:03, petwes said:

By the way welcome to the forum.

There are not that many J Neal's who have medal Index Cards. Do you know whether he served overseas? Do you have his medals? If you do his name regiment and service number will be engraved around the rim. Is he definitely spelt Neal or was  it sometimes Neale?

 

Peter

P.S. Did he survive the war?

We have no clue where he served or where his medals are, it was spelt neal and he survived the war 

[Chris_Baker]

Jake, do you what his address in Leicester may have been in 1918-1919? He may be traceable via the city's Absent Voters List.

[petwes]

On 21/01/2020 at 16:58, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I think you need to dig up more information before looking into his military career

Full name, date of birth, address, next of kin, occupation etc etc.

I would echo this advice.  Without the background details it will be very difficult to move onto the search for his military service.

Peter

[PRC]

On 21/01/2020 at 16:36, Jake maxwell said:

This is my great grandad Joseph neal he was from Leicester and we know nothing about him other than the fact he was in the cavalry can anyone help? 

 

You probably know a great deal more - you just don't realise yet how it can help work out details about his military service.

 

You may not be aware but the vast majority of Army service records went up in flames during the blitz and much of what survives is fire, smoke and water damaged, leaving just snippets to work from. That is why folks here are asking for the personal information - they are looking for ways to help you, not pry into your family tree.

 

The 1911 Census of England & Wales has four potential Joseph Neal's of the right age to have served in the Great War and with a Leicester connection - more if you include those over 45 or born post 1900. So a date \ year of birth will help narrow down which one it was.

 

If you don't know a date of birth then a year and country of death will at least give something that can be worked back from to estimate his year of birth.

 

If you don't know that either but know if was still alive in 1939 and living in England & Wales then very possible he can be tracked down on the National Register taken on the 26th September and initially used for the issue of ID cards and Ration Books.That will give his stated date of birth. (The National Register is available on FindMyPast and Ancestry).

 

Obviously to confirm the right man has been found in the civil records it will be good to know wife's name and details - presuming Joseph married your great-grandmother - and the at least one child that became your grandparent, preferably with year and place of birth details. If you don't have the great grandmother details but know the grandparent then again it may be possible to work backwards.

 

If your Joseph married during the period when he might have been serving, then at a minimum the marriage certificate should show in the column for occupation rank and regiment \ corps, and will sometimes show much more.

 

If your Joseph and his wife had children during the period he was serving, then the child's birth certificate will have similar information about the fathers' occupation. It will also normally give a home address - either as place of birth or address of informant.

 

The closer to the end of the war this happened, the easier it will be to have addresses to check against on the 1918 & 1919 Absent Voters Lists for the wards of Leicester that are available on line - see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Military information there can vary enormously but quite often includes a service number which can then be used to track down any surviving military records.

 

Hope that helps, (and makes sense!)

 

Peter

 

[clk]

Hi,

 

In the 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists for Leicester I only saw two men by the name of Joseph Neal.

 

 

 

In the 1911 census there is a 12 year old Joseph William with his parents (John and Eliza) at 20 Eggington Street - Ancestry link; and a 17 year old Joseph living with his parents (Joseph and Elizabeth) at 56 Woodland Road - Ancestry link.

 

Regards

Chris

[Bob Davies]

Hello Jake and all, I found this chap on Ancestry. 203655 Driver Joseph Proctor Neal. RFA. Bits of his papers survive, on the first page it says 3rd York and Lancs Regt and further in he is RFA. His NOK is John Joseph Neal, living in Ranceby, Grantham, Lincolnshire. On a page headed "Marriage" the word Leicester is there. However I think it is referring to sending his Medical history sheet to North Evington War Hospital Leicester, as is written on another page. He was possibly admitted there at some stage?  Anyhow it is a very log shot. With regards, Bob.

[Jake maxwell]

11 hours ago, PRC said:

You probably know a great deal more - you just don't realise yet how it can help work out details about his military service.

 

You may not be aware but the vast majority of Army service records went up in flames during the blitz and much of what survives is fire, smoke and water damaged, leaving just snippets to work from. That is why folks here are asking for the personal information - they are looking for ways to help you, not pry into your family tree.

 

The 1911 Census of England & Wales has four potential Joseph Neal's of the right age to have served in the Great War and with a Leicester connection - more if you include those over 45 or born post 1900. So a date \ year of birth will help narrow down which one it was.

 

If you don't know a date of birth then a year and country of death will at least give something that can be worked back from to estimate his year of birth.

 

If you don't know that either but know if was still alive in 1939 and living in England & Wales then very possible he can be tracked down on the National Register taken on the 26th September and initially used for the issue of ID cards and Ration Books.That will give his stated date of birth. (The National Register is available on FindMyPast and Ancestry).

 

Obviously to confirm the right man has been found in the civil records it will be good to know wife's name and details - presuming Joseph married your great-grandmother - and the at least one child that became your grandparent, preferably with year and place of birth details. If you don't have the great grandmother details but know the grandparent then again it may be possible to work backwards.

 

If your Joseph married during the period when he might have been serving, then at a minimum the marriage certificate should show in the column for occupation rank and regiment \ corps, and will sometimes show much more.

 

If your Joseph and his wife had children during the period he was serving, then the child's birth certificate will have similar information about the fathers' occupation. It will also normally give a home address - either as place of birth or address of informant.

 

The closer to the end of the war this happened, the easier it will be to have addresses to check against on the 1918 & 1919 Absent Voters Lists for the wards of Leicester that are available on line - see https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

Military information there can vary enormously but quite often includes a service number which can then be used to track down any surviving military records.

 

Hope that helps, (and makes sense!)

 

Peter

 

He died in 1962 his wife was called Margaret children:Michael, John(my grandad), alma, derrick and Thomas its hard because even my family are struggling to find out about him

[Bob Davies]

8 hours ago, clk said:

Hi,

 

In the 1918 and 1919 Absent Voters Lists for Leicester I only saw two men by the name of Joseph Neal.

 

 

 

In the 1911 census there is a 12 year old Joseph William with his parents (John and Eliza) at 20 Eggington Street - Ancestry link; and a 17 year old Joseph living with his parents (Joseph and Elizabeth) at 56 Woodland Road - Ancestry link.

 

Regards

Chris

From what I can see on ancestry.co.uk, Chris has found him on Woodland road. Another tree has the same man and relatives. I am just looking now. Regards, Bob.

[PRC]

The Joseph Neal recorded as dieing in the Leicester District in Q2 of 1962 was aged 68, so born circa 1893/94. There are no additional forenames.

 

There is no obvious Civil Probate that relates.

 

The birth of a Joseph Neal, mothers’ maiden name Heggs, was recorded in the Leicester District in the October to December quarter, (Q4) of 1893.

 

Most likely marriage of his parents occurred in the Leicester District in the April to June quarter, (Q2) of 1885. This was when a Joseph Neal married an Elizabeth Heggs.

 

1901 Census of England & Wales.

Joseph Neal, aged 7 and born Leicester, was recorded living at 24 Asfordby Street, Leicester. This was the household of his parents Joseph, (37, Shoe Pressman) and Elizabeth, (37). The couple also have two daughters Elizabeth, (13) and Ada, (9). All the family members were born Leicester.

 

1911 Census of England & Wales.

 

That Neal family were now living at 56 Woodland Road, Leicester. Parents Joseph, (47) and Elizabeth, (47) have been married 25 years and have had 4 children, of which three were then still alive. Still single and living with them are Ada, (20, Boot and Shoe Machinist) and Joseph, (17, Farm Labourer).

 

The standard Genealogy sources I use for marriage look-ups for England & Wales all show a Joseph Neal marrying a Margaret E Leboy in the Leicester District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1918. And that’s understandable as that is what the official quarterly index published by the General Registrars Office says and it has been faithfully transcribed.

 

However there are no children registered in England and Wales with the surname Neal, mothers’ maiden name Leboy.

 

What there is between 1911 & 1983, (date range on FreeBMD) is just five children registered with the surname Neal, mothers’ maiden name Tebay.

Q4 1919 Thomas J Neal. Sedburgh District (West Riding of Yorkshire)

Q4 1923 Alma S Neal. Leicester District.

Q3 1927 Derrick Neal. Leicester District.

Q2 1931 John T. Neal. Lutterworth District.

Q3 1937 Nichael G.A. Neal. Blaby District,

 

So looks like the second man listed below is the right one.

9 hours ago, clk said:

 

 

 

 

 

Getting the 1918 marriage certificate will probably only confirm the information on the 1918 Absent Voters List.

 

The Medal Index Card for Private 38732 Joseph Neal Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry shows he only qualified for the British War Medal and Victory Medal. That combination would indicate he didn’t see service in a Theatre of War until some point after the 1st January 1916.

 

The associated Service Medal Roll, (available on Ancestry) may help confirm which Battalion(s) he served overseas with.  The Long Long Trail page will then be good place to start with understanding where your relative might have served.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/duke-of-cornwalls-light-infantry/

 

It is still possible he started out serving with the cavalry in the UK, particularly the Yeomanry. But with the static nature of warfare on the Western Front where the vast majority of the British Army were fighting, many Yeomanry units were downsized and the released men sent as replacement drafts to infantry regiments like the DCLI.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Bob Davies]

Great work from you Peter :-) I was unable to find any more. Regards, Bob.

[Jake maxwell]

8 hours ago, PRC said:

The Joseph Neal recorded as dieing in the Leicester District in Q2 of 1962 was aged 68, so born circa 1893/94. There are no additional forenames.

 

There is no obvious Civil Probate that relates.

 

The birth of a Joseph Neal, mothers’ maiden name Heggs, was recorded in the Leicester District in the October to December quarter, (Q4) of 1893.

 

Most likely marriage of his parents occurred in the Leicester District in the April to June quarter, (Q2) of 1885. This was when a Joseph Neal married an Elizabeth Heggs.

 

1901 Census of England & Wales.

Joseph Neal, aged 7 and born Leicester, was recorded living at 24 Asfordby Street, Leicester. This was the household of his parents Joseph, (37, Shoe Pressman) and Elizabeth, (37). The couple also have two daughters Elizabeth, (13) and Ada, (9). All the family members were born Leicester.

 

1911 Census of England & Wales.

 

That Neal family were now living at 56 Woodland Road, Leicester. Parents Joseph, (47) and Elizabeth, (47) have been married 25 years and have had 4 children, of which three were then still alive. Still single and living with them are Ada, (20, Boot and Shoe Machinist) and Joseph, (17, Farm Labourer).

 

The standard Genealogy sources I use for marriage look-ups for England & Wales all show a Joseph Neal marrying a Margaret E Leboy in the Leicester District in the April to June quarter, (Q2), of 1918. And that’s understandable as that is what the official quarterly index published by the General Registrars Office says and it has been faithfully transcribed.

 

However there are no children registered in England and Wales with the surname Neal, mothers’ maiden name Leboy.

 

What there is between 1911 & 1983, (date range on FreeBMD) is just five children registered with the surname Neal, mothers’ maiden name Tebay.

Q4 1919 Thomas J Neal. Sedburgh District (West Riding of Yorkshire)

Q4 1923 Alma S Neal. Leicester District.

Q3 1927 Derrick Neal. Leicester District.

Q2 1931 John T. Neal. Lutterworth District.

Q3 1937 Nichael G.A. Neal. Blaby District,

 

So looks like the second man listed below is the right one.

 

Getting the 1918 marriage certificate will probably only confirm the information on the 1918 Absent Voters List.

 

The Medal Index Card for Private 38732 Joseph Neal Duke of Cornwall’s Light Infantry shows he only qualified for the British War Medal and Victory Medal. That combination would indicate he didn’t see service in a Theatre of War until some point after the 1st January 1916.

 

The associated Service Medal Roll, (available on Ancestry) may help confirm which Battalion(s) he served overseas with.  The Long Long Trail page will then be good place to start with understanding where your relative might have served.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/duke-of-cornwalls-light-infantry/

 

It is still possible he started out serving with the cavalry in the UK, particularly the Yeomanry. But with the static nature of warfare on the Western Front where the vast majority of the British Army were fighting, many Yeomanry units were downsized and the released men sent as replacement drafts to infantry regiments like the DCLI.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Yes thats him john neal was my grandad thank you so much 

[clk]

Hi,

 

FMP has a medical record for 38732 Neal which reads as:

 

First name(s): J

Last name: Neal

Service number: 38732

Rank: Private

Regiment: Duke Of Cornwall's Light Infantry

Battalion:1st

Admitted to: 3 Casualty Clearing Station on 7.10.1918 suffering with myalgia. Transferred to 32 Ambulance Train 8.10.1918

 

His medal roll record indicates that his overseas service was entirely with the 1st Battalion Duke Of Cornwall's Light Infantry. Whilst 38732 Neal doesn't appear to have surviving service papers, it might be possible to infer something about when his DCLI number dates from by looking at papers for other near number DCLI men that do. For example...

 

38733 Sharp - compulsorily transferred from the Army Pay Corps to 4/DCLI  29.3.1918

38740 Day - compulsorily transferred from the Army Ordnance Corps to 3/DCLI  25.3.1918

38755 Clarke -  called up from the Army Reserve, and posted to 3/DCLI 28.3.1918

38774 Walter - compulsorily transferred from the Army Pay Corps to 4/DCLI  29.3.1918

 

Whilst the 38732 DCLI service number would seem to date from late March 1918, in the absence of service papers (or other sources), I don't think that you can be 100% certain what home service he had with other units/regiments prior to serving overseas with 1/DCLI. If he did serve (at home) with the cavalry (under what would have been a different service number) before being transferred to the DCLI that information doesn't appear to be readily available online. What is also unfortunate is that his 1/DCLI records don't allow a determination of when precisely he arrived overseas, and started to serve with 1/DCLI. Presuming that it was sometime after March 1918, the Bn war diary is available (in several parts) from the National Archives (link). It is unlikely to mention him by name though, but should give you a brief day by day description of the what he likely experienced, and where his unit was.

 

Regards

Chris

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

It always fascinates me to see some evidence of the scale of compulsory transfer from support corps to the infantry in late March 1918, following the Kaiserschlact offensive and its successful breaking of the British Lines.  It gives a real flavour of the close to panic conditions that reached a climax with Haig’s famous ‘backs to the wall’ dispatch.  The examples given of these transfers to the DCLI give just an inkling of what occurred.

Edited 25 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[PRC]

2 hours ago, clk said:

Whilst 38732 Neal doesn't appear to have surviving service papers, it might be possible to infer something about when his DCLI number dates from by looking at papers for other near number DCLI men that do. For example...

 

38733 Sharp - compulsorily transferred from the Army Pay Corps to 4/DCLI  29.3.1918

38740 Day - compulsorily transferred from the Army Ordnance Corps to 3/DCLI  25.3.1918

38755 Clarke -  called up from the Army Reserve, and posted to 3/DCLI 28.3.1918

38774 Walter - compulsorily transferred from the Army Pay Corps to 4/DCLI  29.3.1918

 

Whilst the 38732 DCLI service number would seem to date from late March 1918, in the absence of service papers (or other sources), I don't think that you can be 100% certain what home service he had with other units/regiments prior to serving overseas with 1/DCLI. If he did serve (at home) with the cavalry (under what would have been a different service number) before being transferred to the DCLI that information doesn't appear to be readily available online. What is also unfortunate is that his 1/DCLI records don't allow a determination of when precisely he arrived overseas, and started to serve with 1/DCLI. Presuming that it was sometime after March 1918

 

Agree - unless it’s a block transfer it can be difficult to gauge when men moved and what their previous service was if the service records haven’t survived.

 

But perhaps something can be gained by looking at the Commonwealth War Graves Commission database and then combining it with the additional information that sometimes appears on Soldiers Died in the Great War and relates to the original unit, often UK based, that was served with.

 

The first inference is there are no examples of anyone with in the service number range 387xx of the Duke of Cornwalls Light Infantry recorded on the CWGC database. Given the usual high casualty rates in infantry battalions I would expect normally c5-10 deaths – unless either most of them didn’t go to a theatre of war, were transferred to other regiments on reaching a Theatre of War or simply went out too late to lose casualties through the steady attrition endured for much of the war.

 

By comparison the 386xx service number range has four deaths recorded on CWGC.

 

38616 Lance Corporal A Benfield. 1st Battalion. Died 23/09/1918 France.

            SDGW shows formerly 193696 Royal Engineers.

38654 Private William Edward Eales. 1st Battalion. Died 22/09/1918 France.

            SDGW shows formerly 226955 AOC.

38657 Lance Corporal Cyril Mumford. 1st Battalion. Died 29/09/1918 France.

            SDGW shows formerly 027986 AOC.

38683 Private William Lewis Fletcher. 7th Battalion. Died 28/08/1918 France.

            SDGW shows formerly 7/2736 Training Reserve Battalion.

 

Moving on to the 388xx service number range there are five deaths on CWGC.

 

38807 Private F. Kings. 7th Battalion. Died 05/10/1918 France.

            SDGW shows formerly 8/18114 Training Reserve Battalion.

38828 Private W.E.G. Orchard. 1st/5th  Battalion. Died 25/02/1919 France.

38846 Private John Albert Sartin, 7th Battalion. Died 06/01/1919 France.

38870 Private H.C. Webber, 7th Battalion. Died 19/06/1918 France.

            SDGW shows formerly 8/10327 Training Reserve Battalion.

38897 Lance Corporal Arthur Herbert Smith, 7th Battalion. Died 17/06/1918 France.

            SDGW shows formerly 8/8998 Training Reserve Battalion

 

So although it’s only a sample, when combined with the other details provided there is nothing to indicate a mass compulsory draft from the Cavalry.

 

Which leads to the question for Jake – what is the source of the belief that he served in the Cavalry?

 

Cheers,

Peter

[ss002d6252]

7 minutes ago, PRC said:

Which leads to the question for Jake – what is the source of the belief that he served in the Cavalry?

He's wearing a bandoleer in the picture so I suspect this may be where it comes from. The shape of the collar badge does seem to resemble the DCLI one, which suggest he may have been part of the battalion transport section.

Craig

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, ss002d6252 said:

He's wearing a bandoleer in the picture so I suspect this may be where it comes from. The shape of the collar badge does seem to resemble the DCLI one, which suggest he may have been part of the battalion transport section.

Craig

I don’t think he’s wearing a collar badge, Craig, it looks more like a flaw in the photograph.  Collar badges were not authorised for SD until 1924, although a small number of battalions wore them in defiance of regulations, but generally they were war-raised units, or sometimes TF.  The bandolier suggests more to me that the photo was taken whilst the subject was in the RFA, or perhaps RE mounted duty, and before he was compulsorily transferred to the infantry (DCLI), although of course he might’ve been with the transport section of his infantry battalion.

Edited 25 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE