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EvanEvansLancs

Casualty Clearing Station 1st and 11th Lanc Fusiliers

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EvanEvansLancs

My grandfather Evan Thomas Evans 7658 of the 11th battalion and 1st battalion Lancashire Fusiliers, wrote down the following sequence of numbers; 16-17-13, and 10-1-14 (see attached photograph). I believe they refer to the casualty clearing stations/hospital numbers that my grandfather attended after being wounded firstly at Vimy Ridge (May 1916) with the 11th battalion, and secondly at Ypres or Passchendaele (January 1918) with the 1st battalion. He went to Edinburgh hospital on 29 May 1916, and was at Llandaff hospital, Cardiff between January and April 1918 before being discharged through disability in April 1918, due to his injuries.  Until recently I didn't realise what the numbers meant !  Please can someone help me with this. If anyone thinks I've misinterpreted the clearing station numbers here, and have got this all wrong then please let me know.

 

First wound

16 Le Trefort general hospital (or is it Treport ?)

17 Remy Sidings Clearing Station

13 Boulogne 

 

Second wound 

10 Remy Sidings Clearing Station   

1 Choques

14 Wimereaux general hospital (between Boulogne and Calais).  

 

Many thanks  

Dat - WW1 numbers.jpg

Edited by EvanEvansLancs

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EvanEvansLancs

I would like to know which CCS would be assigned for wounded for his Division at the time of the both wounds if anyone can help or point me in the right direction please.   

Edited by EvanEvansLancs
error

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TEW

I had a look at a few things sticking at present with incident #1 in May 1916 with 11/LF. He shows on an Official War Office Casualty List; Daily List of 17/6/16. The general rule is to subtract 3-4 weeks from that which gives you a potential wounding around 20th -27th May 1916. These are only guidelines.

 

The dairy for 11/LF for May 1916 shows more than a significant involvement in the events 15th - 19th May 1916 when 5 mines were exploded and the resulting craters seized and held by various battalions of 25th Division. As you mention in the other topic, the diary for 11/LF has a casualty list for men of 11/LF wounded/killed/missing for the period 15th-19th and your Grandfather is not on the list. The other Evans, #9680 has his own record in the Casualty Lists for 12/6/17, applying the same 3-4 week guideline shows his wounding to be as expected; between 15th & 22nd May.

 

The 3-4 week guideline can sometimes alter to 2-3 weeks, less than 2 is unlikely and sometimes names are missed off list and it may extend to 4-6 weeks or longer. However, based on what there is it seems that 7680 Evans was wounded perhaps a week later than those on the list in the unit diary.

 

74 Brigade diary has another list of totals by battalion wounded in May 1916, for 11/LF they have;

3rd - 1

4th - 5

5th - 10

6th - 2

7th - 1, then out of the line until 15th

15th - 43 (Crater Seizing)

16th - 9

17th - 14

18th - 23

Not sure how these totals tally with the diary list of named men but the battalion was out of the line again on 19th and I'm not sure there was scope for being wounded in the remainder of May other than perhaps by random shelling, or the 3-4 week guideline needs extending in this case.

 

I've checked 25th Division Medical Services, 17 Corps ditto and 3rd Army ditto. There are no specific 'medical arrangements' for May 1916 which usually means that the previous medical arrangements were still in place. The appendices for April 1916 show that 30 CCS at Aubigny was the main place for casualty evacuations with 43 CCS in Frevent also getting some mention.

The Deputy Director Medical Services 17 Corps mentions frequent visits to 30 CCS during May to see how things were going.

 

For me this establishes that a wounded soldier from 11/LF would be evacuated back to 30 CCS Aubigny during May 1916.

So, I'm afraid we're no closer to understanding what those numbers mean.

TEW

 

 

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EvanEvansLancs

That's a very comprehensive bit of work TEW thank you. I have seen the War Office Casualty List of 17/6/16 but didn't realise the 3-4 weeks guideline until now. I can add a bit of info that may help further regarding the timing of the 1916 wound; There is an article in the Scotsman from 30 May saying he arrived at Edinburgh Bangour hospital on 29 May 1916 with around 80 others. Not sure how long it would take to get there from Vimy Ridge, but does that date at Edinburgh fit with your suggested date range around 20-27 May, allowing for the usual length of time soldiers stayed at the Dressing Station, CCS and Base Hospital etc when there was a bad wound ? If so that date range aligns with the German attack on Vimy Ridge around that time, and I have read reports somewhere saying there was confusion as a result of that attack, with many British casualties, and the shelling went very far back, plus the 11th had just handed over to other battalions including the SW Borderers, so could Evan have been mixed up with other wounded at that time or could he have been part of relief to another battalion ?

 

Regarding the numbers for wound #1, I'm convinced they are something to do with hospitals/CCS but as you say there's a few things sticking ! He wrote 2 sets of numbers down and there were 2 major wounds and they all could in theory be CCS/Hospital numbers so for now I'm still hoping that's what they mean ! However could some of the numbers on wound #1 be Dressing stations or Ambulance trains, or perhaps a Canadian CCS ? He was saved by a Canadian doctor but I think that was his second wound.  

 

Regarding wound #2, I had thought it may have been at Passchendaele in January 1918, but based on the 3-4 weeks guideline and the fact he was on the casualty list of 20 January 1918, that puts his wound in December 1917. However I know it was a very bad one as he was left for dead because he was bleeding so badly with a shoulder smashed by shrapnel, so could it  have been even earlier at Cambrai during late November ?   

 

Lots of questions - sorry.          

  

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clk

Hi,

 

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I seem to recall reading that the War Office published the lists based on information received from the Regimental Depots, who in turn had received information from various sources - i.e. there was a paperwork chain/flow. Working on the presumption that was the case, and the 'flow' would have generally happened at the same rate (with the clerks at each stage processing notifications on the basis of date order received), it's a working assumption that men from the same regiment who appeared on the same WO Daily List, were probably generally wounded within a few days of each other. If you were to find service papers for other men from your grandfathers regiment who appear on the same casualty list , they would hopefully record a commonality of actual wounding dates (within a couple of days or so of each other) from which you could make a reasonable inference, and then cross reference to Evan's Bn war diary to see if anything jumps out.

 

Regards

Chris

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EvanEvansLancs

Thanks Chris. Here's the info from the weekly/daily list regarding Wound #2 in 1918 for the Lancashire Fusiliers. It doesn't say which battalion. I have not had a chance to xref against the 11th or 1st battalion war diaries yet (I don't have access to the war diary for other battalions), or to look at the daily list for wound #1 in 1916, but it's a start:

Weekly Casualty List January 29th 1918; 

Daily List of January 23rd 1918

Wounded; Hartley 7517 M.A. (Blackrod)

Daily List of January 24th 1918

Wounded; Brookshaw 38582 J A (Cressage), Evans T.E. 7658 (Penclawdd)  (It should say Evans ET)

Daily List of 25th January 1918

Killed; Holland 307219 L.- Corporal J (Oldham)

Wounded; Atkinson 39459 R (Colne), Irving 39420 J (Hulme), Jenkinson 38894 T (Aintree), McKenna 204704 C (Liverpool), Whittaker 202109 W (Ramsbottom)

 

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TEW

As you seem to have access to WO Casualty List you could try assessing the Daily List dates for the list of wounded men (15th - 19th May) given in the 11/LF diary. The one I checked came up as 12/6/16 whereas Grandfather comes up on 17/6/16. See how many are on the 12/7/16 list and check if any are on the 12/6/16 list.

 

Can you total up the numbers of wounded ordinary ranks on the diary list, is it around the 89 given in the brigade diary? If not then it's possibly not a complete list.

 

Evacuations from the front line to UK hospital can be surprisingly fast, 48 hours is possible. If the wound was bad and deemed suitable for a UK hospital there would be little waiting around time, ambulance train from CCS to coastal base then onto ship and off home.

 

TEW

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EvanEvansLancs
Spoiler
Spoiler

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by EvanEvansLancs
incorrectly entered as hidden therefore I've removed it and submitted it again (below)

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EvanEvansLancs

Unfortunately I don't have access to the WO Casualty Lists prior to 1917. However I have looked through the 11th LF War Diary for 15-19 May, and in my view the numbers don't seem to add up. There are 2 separate lists – a high level summary and then the detail listing the names and number. I have summarised below – the first list is as shown in the war diary.  

First List  (summary list only)

Battalion etc                 Officers                           Others

                                        Killed    Wounded          Killed   Wounded

11th LF                            4             -                          30          40

9th Loyal N Lancs          2             3                          -              -

105th Company RE       1             -                           8            15

6th SW Borders             -              4                         not known

 

Second List (Detail over 2 pages listing the name and number of all soldiers wounded and killed)

Killed

15/5 - 4 officers

16/5 - 24

18/5 – 12

19/5 – 6

(Missing believed killed 16/5 – 1)

Wounded

16/5 – 43 plus 1 more officer wounded 16/5

17/5 – 12 plus 1 more private wounded 16/5

18/5 – 12

19/5 – 5

 

 

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TEW

I've downloaded the Daily List 17/6/16 for Lancashire Fusiliers. I'll have a look later to see if any of the 21 men on the list also show on the diary list.

TEW

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TEW

With regard to the Official War Office Casualty List; Daily List of 17/6/16 for 7658 Evans.

 

There are 21 names on this daily list, excluding 7658 Evans there are 10 men on the same list that also show on the battalion diary list, they are;

Boyes, Burke, Davis, Hamer, Jones, Smart, Sutton, Thomas, Rourke and Young. The dates given in the diary list for their wounds vary from 16th May to 19th May with a leaning (5) towards 18th May.

 

Working a different way the other men on the diary list for 18th/19th May show up on the Daily List for 12th June and 17th June.

 

So really, I can't see why 7658 Evans is not in the battalion diary list, clerical error is the most likely cause, perhaps they got confused by 9680 Evans and somehow thought Evans was being duplicated?

 

So, I'd go with 7658 Evans wounded during the crater seizing and holding phase 15-19 May 1916. I'm afraid that doesn't help with your number problem.

Are these numbers on the reverse of a photo?

TEW

 

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EvanEvansLancs

Thanks TEW. I think your explanation is right regarding perhaps a clerical error and confusion with 9680. Around 15 to 19 May does seem most likely.

 

Back to the numbers - no they're not on a photo, they're written inside the front of a WW1 history book called "Twenty Years Later" along with his name and 7658, with his name, 7658 and 11th and 1st Lancashire Fusiliers also written inside the back cover. The corner of a number of other pages are turned down, and the chapters align with the movements of the 11th and the 1st - eg. Vimy, Somme, Cambrai, 3rd battle of Ypres, Langemarck, Arras etc. Also on page 862 there's a photo of "a british trolley with a trolley load of wounded on one of the light railways behind the line at Vimy", with a note he has written above the trolley saying "I have been in this trolley wounded". Only other possible clue is he has written "116" at the bottom of that page.

 

Regarding wound #2, and the daily list in January 1918, there were a high number of casualties in November 1917 at Cambrai, and some more on 1st December 1918, so I wonder if it could have been that far back ? Before I started researching this I had previously thought he had been wounded at Cambrai, but wasn't 100% sure. Could it be Cambrai even if that ended in November ?    

 

I am writing a paper with his movements etc., plus experiences he has passed down to me, plus extracts from War Diaries especially movements and operations around the times when he was wounded. It's for the family and for future generations to try and appreciate what he must have gone through. I have been trying to get it right in terms of accuracy, and this website, and research and help from yourself and others are a great help. 

 

 

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EvanEvansLancs

Possibly a breakthrough regarding the numbers 16-17-13.

 

I think 16 may refer to field ambulance number 16FA (it is shown on a page from the long long trail copied below). The long long trail page title is "Gazeteer of the Western Front; Brandhoet"

 

Capture.jpg

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EvanEvansLancs

Hello again - TEW/CLK I would be very grateful if someone could have a look at my post number 12 above if you get a chance please.

 

It was in reply to the question from TEW about the numbers being on a photo, and also says "Regarding wound #2, and the daily list in January 1918, there were a high number of casualties in November 1917 at Cambrai, and some more on 1st December 1918, so I wonder if it could have been that far back ? Before I started researching this I had previously thought he had been wounded at Cambrai, but wasn't 100% sure. Could it be Cambrai even if that ended in November ?

 

I want to add that his life was saved by a Canadian doctor when he was bleeding to death and his boots were filled with blood, and he was left aside with others in a similarly bad state with little chance of surviving, but the Canadian doctor insisted to others that he could save him. (We always thought he was a famous Canadian doctor implying John McRae, but I don't think John McRae was at Vimy or Cambrai/Ypres at the time. My guess is it was probably wound #2 in 1918 and at the Clearing Station, but it could have been at a Dressing Station, or if he was Canadian then could it have been by a Canadian Field Ambulance if they were nearby at the time ? Where could I find out where the Canadians were at the time ?

 

Thanks

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charlie962

re wound 2.

The CasList section in which Dearden appears looks like a few men from a lot of different units- suggesting a possible catch-up list.

 

Looking at some other names of other units on that same caslist 24/1/18 I see that E Dearden (232646 per Caslist sb 252646) of the KLR has a surviving service record that shows he was wounded (gsw head slight) on 30/11/17

 

So it is quite possible for ET EVANS to have been wounded around that date. I haven't gone further to check for other service records but here is an extract that you might like to follow up ?

1683379779_GSWEvanceETLancFusCasList24Jan1918.JPG.423e49de1836710a344c31510c615893.JPG

Courtesy theGenealogist

 

Charlie

 

Edit- another catch-up

 

BorderRegt Kane 27254 actual wounding 20/11/17 leading to evac to England 9/12/17.   So definitely a catch-up list.

 

A useful exercise !

 

Charlie

 

Edited by charlie962

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TEW

Re post #13. I did wonder about 16 & 17 Field ambulances but still leaves 13 unexplained, unless it's a badly written 18? Plus 16 & 17 FAs are 6th Division so a link between 29th Div and 6th would have to be found.

 

Ditto for 13 FA of 5th Division, although I still think moving through 3 field ambulances for one wound before heading to CCS is a bit odd. (Although see below for Tincourt CCSs).

 

For wound #2 following up on what Charlie posted.

There is a Medical Arrangements for 29th Division for 20th Nov - 4th Dec, subdivided into 21st Nov - 29th Nov and 30th Nov -4th Dec. The British CCSs used for that period by 29th Division were those based at Ytres No. 21 & 48 and Tincourt No. 5, 13, 55.

But, not sure where the Canadian CCCs were. Always possible a Canadian doctor was serving at a British CCS or as you say a Canadian field ambulance was part of the chain.

 

Canadian Field Ambulance diaries are online and free! There seem to only be 10 Canadian FAs so perhaps worth checking for their locations Nov-Dec 1917.

 

29th Division only arrived in the Gouzeaucourt area 18/11/1917 and left for the Fruges area 13/12/17. If he was wounded during that period the Ytres & Tincourt concept applies, if he was wounded after the 13th Dec then it doesn't.

 

Perhaps check back with the 1/LF diary to see if there are actions he may have been wounded in from 13th Dec.

 

I can check the Corps diary later to see what Corps arrangements exist but I've already seen that 29th Div. moved from IV Corps/3rd Army to X Corps/2nd Army on 18th Dec and then the 2nd Army became the 4th Army 20th Dec.

TEW

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EvanEvansLancs

Charlie and TEW - thanks both.

 

Re. Charlie's suggestion to try and find service records for those on the same casualty list for January 24th 1918 as per the pasted extract above - this is what I've found;

 

Of the 33 others on the list (Excluding E. Evans and Dearden), I have only found service records or medical records with dates wounded or admitted to hospital etc for 9 of the 33.

Cruttenden 52862 - gun shot wound back/chest 20/11/1917

Spalding 42652 - Medical Record shows hospital admission 25/11/1917

Kane 27254 - gun shot wound side 20/11/1917 

Heyden 1632 - at a field hospital (but cant read the details) 11/11/1917

Cole 22046 - Gun shot wound arm and side admitted to 31 ambulance train 3/12/1917

Lawrence 31973 - gassed admitted to 31 ambulance train 3/12/1917

Longbottom 32272 - gun shot wound side 22/11/1917

Matthews 19475 - 2/1/1918 (at Boulogne ??) 

Seabright 32905 - on 62 CCS on 29/11/1917 and on 31 Ambulance train 3/2/1918 

 

Therefore adding Dearden to this makes 10. Of the 10, it looks like 9 were wounded in November 1917, with most being between 20/11 and 30/11.

 

The War Diary describes in detail the 1st battalion Lancashire Fusiliers involvement in the attack and subsequent operations in the front line at the battle of Cambrai (at Equancourt, then Marcoing, then Masnieres), between 20/11 and 30/11, and suffered heavy casualties;

- I officer and 13 other ranks killed

- 6 officers and 95 other ranks wounded

- 1 officer and 43 other ranks missing

They then suffered more casualties on 1/12/1917 (numbers not given) at Masnieres by heavy German artillery shelling and trench mortars.

 

My view is Evan probably received his last wound (wound #2) at the battle of Cambrai as some of the family had previously thought, in November or on 1/12/17. It would be good if there was something to confirm this, but based on the above information it does seem very likely. What do you think folks ? 

 

 

 

 

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charlie962
2 minutes ago, EvanEvansLancs said:

What do you think folks ?

Perfectly good reasoning and thanks for posting that additional research on casualties from the same list.

 

I am fascinated to see the progressive decoding of those numbers !

 

charlie

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TEW

Had a look through some Corps & CCS diaries and can say that for wound#2 CCSs Nos.5, 55, 21 & 48 are the ones for evacuations up to early December 1917.
Diaries for those CCSs show 8 CAMC officers arriving as part of additional surgical teams. Which seems to be a good find!
More tomorrow.
TEW

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clk

Hi,

 

If (big if) there were to be a direct correlation between deaths and non fatal woundings, the most likely dates for a non fatal wounding (with the date range 10th November to 10th December 1917 inc) would seem to be 21st or 30th November. Matching CWGC data against Soldiers' Effects records appears to show...

 

image.png.3a5f900d8e72d8a1b5ed544abba89d2a.png

 

Regards

Chris

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charlie962
11 minutes ago, clk said:

(big if)

indeed!!

 

Having just looked at 5 men on another completely unrelated thread who all died in the same shell explosion I find that they have Soldiers Effects,  CWGC, War Diary, and personal diary dates that vary between 1st and 2nd Oct. So even down to a day is asking a lot.

 

Charlie

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clk

Hi,

 

4 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

So even down to a day is asking a lot.

 

My thoughts precisely Charlie. I can understand why the OP would like to know, but from the hard evidence that is readily available I don't think that he/we will ever be able to nail it with a high degree of confidence. What I did find interesting from the exercise is the use of at least 88 FA; and 5/21/48 CCSs over the period. Proves nothing though.

 

Regards

Chris

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TEW

For the 1/LF during  from Nov-early Dec 1917 the III Corps DDMS dairy has the following;

 

Composition, 6th, 12th, 20th & 29th Divisions. They were running a slightly experimental method of evacuation is as much as where possible wounded were to be evacuated direct from ADS to CCS skipping the use of MDSs unless the evacuations became blocked.

 

Some of the arrangements were under Corps command so for example they had a Corps Main Dressing Station (CMDS) and a Corps Walking Wounded Station (CWWS) both located at V.18.c.

 

The CCSs used for evacuations are those at Tincourt 5 & 55 at J.23.d and Ytres 21 & 48 at P.32.d.

 

The arrangements indicate certain types of wounded from various parts of the Corps front to have a specific CCS group assigned but in the event this arrangement broke down when the Ytres group was full to capacity so all wounded were re-directed to Tincourt until that filled and Ytres had space etc.

 

Checking the CCS diaries, 21 CCS shows a team from 3 Canadian Stationary Hospital  arriving but the officer is RAMC.

 

48 CCS.
21/11/17. Surgical Teams reported for duty. Capt. T MacPherson CAMC from No. 3 Australian CCS. Team returned to unit 24/11/17.

 

55 CCS.
17/11/17. Surgical Team from 3 Canadian Stationary Hospital arrived consisting of; Major GWO. Dowsley CAMC and Capt. HA Gordon CAMC.
23/11/17. Major Dowsley CAMC proceeded to 49 CCS.
30/11/17. Two surgical teams arrive from 49 CCS; Maj. JA Dickson CAMC. Capt. AE Fraleigh CAMC.

 

5CCS.
17/11/17. Capt. WV Lamb CAMC reported for duty (Surgical Team). Returned to unit 23/11/17.
2/12/17. Capt. WV Lamb CAMC and Capt. G Stoddart CAMC arrived for duty.
4/12/17. Major SR Harrison CAMC and Capt. AJ Swann arrived for duty (Surgical Team). Returned to unit 13/12/17.
18/12/17. Capt. GA Ramsey CAMC arrived for duty from 7th Cavalry FA.
23/12/17. Capts. Lamb CAMC and Stoddart CAMC return to unit.

 

While I can’t say which CCS Evans was admitted to the presence of 9 possibly 10 CAMC surgeons on duty at the relevant CCSs certainly makes your Canadian connection regarding his wound sound more than plausible.

 

Quote

I want to add that his life was saved by a Canadian doctor when he was bleeding to death and his boots were filled with blood, and he was left aside with others in a similarly bad state with little chance of surviving, but the Canadian doctor insisted to others that he could save him.

 

But still not a lot to explain 10-1-14!
TEW

 


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EvanEvansLancs

Brilliant research CLK/TEW/Charlie - thank you. 

 

My view is the wound was probably later in the battle around 30 November or 1 December. Just my gut feeling because I think he had experienced the main tank attacks, and I know he was wounded by shrapnel which may be more likely later in the battle when the trenches were targeted ? (based on the war diary description of events)

 

One avenue I can now focus on is to align the daily list for 1st battalion Lancashire Fusiliers around the same date as Evan appeared on the list (ie. last few weeks in January) which should match with a large number of 1st batt LF wounded 20 November to 2 December, and try and find their service records, which may mention the CCS numbers above plus further movements to base hospitals etc. 

 

I would like to follow up on the remarkable breakdown of CCS numbers and the Canadian CAMC surgeons. I think this list means he almost certainly went to one of those Casualty Clearing stations above for wound #2 rather then the ones on my original list ? Any views on whether he would have gone next to Boulogne or Wimereaux ? The long long trail seems to indicate either number 13 (Boulogne) or 14 (Wimereaux). Are either of those a feasible final hospital before going back to Blighty for wound #2. It would be good if it was 14 !!   

 

That takes me back to the numbers again …...16-17-13 and 10-1-14; A very long shot but I've just seen a website "British Tank Actions of the First World War" listing tank battalion and company numbers present at Cambrai. All the numbers I'm searching were tank battalion and tank company numbers. Made me wonder if there could be a link? Or even something to do with the LF 1st battalion platoon or company numbers, or locations (hills) on maps ? Apologies if these are daft suggestions.  

 

 

 

 

Edited by EvanEvansLancs
typo

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charlie962
10 minutes ago, EvanEvansLancs said:

One avenue I can now focus on is to align the daily list for 1st battalion Lancashire Fusiliers around the same date as Evan appeared on the list (ie. last few weeks in January) which should match with a large number of 1st batt LF wounded 20 November to 2 December

I would expect the bulk of the wounded to have been reported 30 days after the event +/-

So I would have looked for CasLists beginning of Jan 1918.

With the large number of missing I suspect there could have been confusion and delays.

 

Charlie (And I too am impressed by the CCS research)

 

 

Edited by charlie962

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