Trench digging machines

[Milner]

Given the amount of trenches on the western front were any machines used to actually dig the trenches rather than hand digging by soldiers. 

 

[WhiteStarLine]

I'm going to stick my head out and say no, in the certain knowledge someone will come forward with a refutation!

 

The signal corps was desperate to come up with a way of mechanical excavation.  A typical battalion leaving the line for a supposed 'rest' would quickly be allocated to endless deep excavations of cable to make it safe from shell fire.  As this could only be done safely at night, the battalions sometimes worked physically harder digging kilometres of trenches to bury cable 2 metres underground than they did on their rotation to the front.  Attempts were mechanise this were made but "mechanical trench excavating was, throughout the war, always just a little behind what was required of it and was never of great importance".

Work of the Royal Engineers in the European War, 1914-19. The Signal Service (France). Author R. E. PRIESTLEY, M.C, B.A. (Late Major, R.E.).

Quote

 

In August 1916, the French Army was using with success two such excavators capable of digging a trench 6 ft. deep by 2 ft. wide
at a rate of 20 yds. an hour. These machines were used in chalk country and their success seemed sufficient to warrant the adoption of
similar machines in those Corps of the British Army which were also operating in chalk districts. They had their limitations, however.
It was found that the type of wheel rendered them quite unsuitable for use in muddy ground such as was prevalent in the northern portion
of the British front. The machines sank in the mud and—far from saving labour—they required the help of large labour parties to extricate
them from the difficulties into which they often fell themselves.

Their size and the noise they made also unsuited them for work in forward areas. Many buries were perforce carried out under conditions
where night work and comparative silence were essential. In such cases mechanical excavators were quite useless and they
were at once ruled out as regards forward work. There remained then the possibility of making use of them out of
sight and hearing of the enemy. There seemed little doubt that they would be of great use in the rear portion of Divisional areas
and in that portion of Corps areas where, for particular reasons, burying was considered advisable. Six such tractors were, therefore,
ordered from America in December, 1916. The first of these arrived in France in February of the following year and extensive trials were
at once carried out, with varying results. Finally, in February, 1918, the Director of Signals reported that the excavators in their present
form were not worth their keep. Owing to constant breakdowns and to the difficulty of obtaining spare parts, it was estimated that the
personnel employed with them would have performed more work with pick and shovel in the same time.

Further trials were ordered but were never satisfactory, and with the passing of the summer of 1918 the occasion for the employment
of the mechanical excavator ceased. If suitable machines and a supply of spare parts had been available in 1916, a considerable saving
of labour could have been made in 1917, particularly since the Buried System was then extended far to the rear in the endeavour
to counteract the increased activity of the enemy's long range guns and bombing aeroplanes. As it was, however, mechanical trench
excavating was, throughout the war, always just a little behind what was required of it and was never of great importance.*

* In justice to these machines it should be recorded that occasions did occur when they did good work. In V Corps area in 1918, for
instance, several miles of first-class cable trench were dug in hard clay and chalk in the Toutencourt area. Buried communication was
established for some 2| miles forward of and 2 miles behind Divisional headquarters. The impression created here was good and with proper
spares for maintenance much better and more general results might have been obtained.

 

[egbert]

Schützengrabenbagger im Einsatz

 

 

[Matlock1418]

Here are a few links to photos of a french trenching machine.

https://www.akg-images.fr/CS.aspx?VP3=SearchResult&ITEMID=2UMDHUHYZJVA&LANGSWI=1&LANG=German 

https://www.pinterest.com.au/pin/546976317216032967 

https://www.alamy.com/excavating-machine-for-digging-trenches-france-ww1-image66160278.html

And to a ??? version

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/mechanical-trench-digging 

And an AV7 Schützengrabenbagger

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fimgur.com%2F6iIxm9y.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Ftanks-encyclopedia.com%2Fww1%2Fgermany%2Fa7v-schutzengrabenbagger-lmg-trench-digger%2F&docid=LI_Den6j6VB5BM&tbnid=SNyF0uC1ds5adM%3A&vet=1&w=650&h=413&safe=strict&bih=625&biw=1366&ved=2ahUKEwjvxtGiqY3nAhVjxoUKHUjcB8MQxiAoB3oECAEQKQ&iact=c&ictx=1 

 

To my eyes would seem much more suited to straight-line trenching-in of cables etc. in rear areas rather than in forward areas and front-line / fighting trenches (with their many traverses)

Edited 18 January , 2020 by Matlock1418
additional links

[Milner]

Thanks for the updates, but I am surprised that more use of machines were not used or the technology developed further to free up men for other duties.

[Matlock1418]

On 18/01/2020 at 16:39, Milner said:

I am surprised that more use of machines were not used or the technology developed further to free up men for other duties.

I am sure many WW1 trials were made [and in WW2 and subsequently too] but I too have not heard of much use in WW1

Don't know what the state of play is now but around 1980 when many holes had already been dug in the chalk of Salisbury Plain using entrenching tools [and many blisters hard earned] then the RE turned up to help!

As it was a very dark night not much could be seen - Think it was a bit like a powered rasp [bit like the ones you can get for woodworking, but bigger and a vehicle or towed trailer of some sort!  But a bit smaller than the ones in the WW1 photos].  But don't know if it was considered operational or if a trial.

You certainly could hear it!  And the sparks when hitting flint nodules made it look like Nov 5!

It didn't seem to like the flinty chalk [so wouldn't have liked much of the Western Front - Think it did one small c.2-3m straight fire trench.

Even so broke down very regularly probably due to the flints [so not much help!] and the RE then left in a huff = heads were gratefully got down at last in peace & quiet

[Got very noisy again in the morning after "Stand-to!" but that was a different matter]

Never was offered such 'help' again - but it might have perhaps worked in clay marls and perhaps the later sand & gravels of the north German plain ???  As for low-lying Flanders I don't know how it would have got on - dug another water-filled ditch or just got bogged.  Certainly possibly the former, probably the latter.

Reliability probably was the biggest drawback in WW1 and I suspect even now would be something of an issue for many trenching tools in many soil/rock situations.

And as written before - probably better in straight lines for cables [or should I write 'wires' 'lines'?] - hard to do a WW1 fire trench with multiple fire bays and traverses I would think

Edited 20 January , 2020 by Matlock1418
addit

[andrew pugh]

Hi Milner 

I remember seeing a photograph in a book of Winston Churchill standing by one of these machines during the Great War,

Regards

Andy  

[Matlock1418]

On 18/01/2020 at 18:03, andrew pugh said:

I remember seeing a photograph in a book of Winston Churchill standing by one of these machines during the Great War,

May have been the GW but WC was actually very keen in WW2 - 'Cultivator No. 6' or 'Mole' as WC called them.

But careful folks we are at risk of going of going off topic and discussing WW2 - so we had better not discuss this and later developments any more.

:-) M

[HenryTheGerman]

Here you see two more photos of a trench digging machine  These ones show the usage of the machine in the run of the Great War:

 

 

[Matlock1418]

7 hours ago, HenryTheGerman said:

more photos of a trench digging machine

Henry, Thank you.

The French one again it seems to me.

Looking at the first photo the trench is very narrow and straight - again reinforcing my thought that this one is for well behind the lines digging-in of wires lines and pipes etc., in prepared defensive lines and not for front-line and offensive purposes.  Also looks a bit narrow for a communication trench to be used by soldiers in full order, carrying stores or by stretcher-bearers etc.

Edited 31 January , 2020 by Matlock1418

[HenryTheGerman]

Yes, @Matlock14181,

the trench is very narrow - but usually trench digging started with the excavation of a narrow trench that over time had been widened. And one also must differentiate between main trenches and communication trenches - The German captions of the images say that the machine is a trench excavator, being used to prepare reserve trenches (in the rear which seems quite logical). It is also stated that the soil had to be suitable for the machine.

[Matlock1418]

2 minutes ago, HenryTheGerman said:

usually trench digging started with the excavation of a narrow trench that over time had been widened. And one also must differentiate between main trenches and communication trenches - The German captions of the images say that the machine is a trench excavator, being used to prepare reserve trenches (in the rear which seems quite logical). It is also stated that the soil had to be suitable for the machine.

Once again thank you for your contribution.

I agree that trenches had to start in some form, and obviously could be widened

Also agreed there is a marked difference between forward/front-line and reserve trenches - especially the former which had a crenellated form of  fire-bays and traverses.

I struggle to see how it could assist with a fighting or front-line defensive trench.

And for later active defensive positions ???

Certainly a reserve / rear area machine.

I am intrigued by the German caption(s) - What is the source? What sort of publication? What date? - Who made the statement / analysis that it was a reserve trench?  French or German description in the first place?  Propaganda ???

I fear incorrect assumptions could have been made back then.

And how well did it really perform in chalk etc. ??? - see my earlier post #6 - This thread is obviously the place to discuss!

:-) M

[HenryTheGerman]

@Matlock1418

I came over the source a few days ago. It is a book which caused me to open this GWF thread today, too:

 

[Matlock1418]

1 minute ago, HenryTheGerman said:

I came over the source a few days ago. It is a book which caused me to open this GWF thread today, too:

Ah, interesting.

Given the photos [in the book / other thread] I suggest it is probably post-war publication as a mixture of nationalities / allies seem represented and the dating of the photos - not sure a contemporary source in Germany would have had access to those photos!

I therefore greatly fear for the correct interpretation / labelling of the photos - potentially by someone who was not really knowledgable at source or at the publisher or even the publisher alone.

So, unfortunately, I cannot have strong faith in the french machine digging reserve trenches.

But interesting to see your photos.

:-) M

[HenryTheGerman]

The book must have been published in the 20ths. It is very peculiar that no publisher or publishing house has been mentioned. I wonder how the Germans could get access to the war pic Collections of the archives of the Allies. Perhaps the author/Publisher was in speaking terms with the responsibles from Allied side soon after the war had come to an end. - The book belonged to my maternal grandfather who fought at the Ypres salient and in France.

Regards

H. 

[Matlock1418]

4 minutes ago, HenryTheGerman said:

The book must have been published in the 20ths

Yes, a quick web search comes up with many editions from mid-1920s and early 1930s

[HenryTheGerman]

Because the book's images originate with the Allies, they certainly still are being stored somewhere in archives, and they must be "known". Perhaps the GWF will bring light into darkness.  

[HenryTheGerman]

The photos in the book are of good quality and are intriguing. I already considered to take snapshots of the most prominent ones and to post them. But I would do this only if this would be of general interest for the fellow GWF members.

[gmac101]

I worked on a ship that cut trenches for pipelines using a digging machine that worked on a principle similar to that shown in the photographs.  It worked well subsea but the wear on the digging buckets is significant and there was a team of welders constantly "buttering" new metal onto worn buckets which were then refitted. It would be interesting to see if these machines required similar levels of repair 

[Matlock1418]

15 hours ago, HenryTheGerman said:

The photos in the book are of good quality and are intriguing. I already considered to take snapshots of the most prominent ones and to post them. But I would do this only if this would be of general interest for the fellow GWF members.

Yes - Always of interest - within Copyright limits of course.

Certainly the trenching machine was a good candidate for using in this thread.

:-) M

 

3 hours ago, gmac101 said:

I worked on a ship that cut trenches for pipelines using a digging machine that worked on a principle similar to that shown in the photographs.  It worked well subsea but the wear on the digging buckets is significant and there was a team of welders constantly "buttering" new metal onto worn buckets which were then refitted. It would be interesting to see if these machines required similar levels of repair 

Likewise similar experience and thoughts

[Matlock1418]

On 31/01/2020 at 19:25, HenryTheGerman said:

The photos in the book are of good quality and are intriguing. I already considered to take snapshots of the most prominent ones and to post them. But I would do this only if this would be of general interest for the fellow GWF members.

Yes please.

:-) M

[Matlock1418]

 

On 31/01/2020 at 19:25, HenryTheGerman said:

The photos in the book are of good quality and are intriguing. I already considered to take snapshots of the most prominent ones and to post them. But I would do this only if this would be of general interest for the fellow GWF members.

Henry

Bitte / Yes please!  I believe they would be of wider interest [and not just to me!] now, and to others in the future too.

:-) M

Edited 17 August , 2020 by Matlock1418
Sorry it's another duplication but I am interested ;-0

[Matlock1418]

On 18/01/2020 at 03:28, WhiteStarLine said:

Work of the Royal Engineers in the European War, 1914-19. The Signal Service (France). Author R. E. PRIESTLEY, M.C, B.A. (Late Major, R.E.).

For anyone interested in a wider read of WSL's quoted book - see post #2 [I'm currently reading if for another purpose - but WSL seems spot on with his abstract]

Available online http://www.rcsigs.ca/index.php/The_Signal_Service_in_the_European_War_of_1914_to_1918 

:-) M