Ideas on regiment please

[Lois]

On 19/01/2020 at 15:45, FROGSMILE said:

That’s excellent.  There’s a lot there to examine but as a start point it confirms his transition from 3rd VB to 5th TF as surmised.  Then there’s a section recording all the annual, Summer training camps that he attended and for which he was paid. Then it confirms when he was mobilised for service in WW1, which was known as “embodied”.  That then follows with his record of service throughout WW1.

He reached the then rank of Company Quarter Master Sergeant (CQMS), which was later recategorised as an appointment, but was then temporarily released from service to carry out “Munitions work” in Luton, until final discharge in December 1916.  Statistically it’s difficult to not reach the conclusion that discharge at that point in the war very likely saved his life.

 

Yes, it's a sobering thought.

 

The 1911 census lists his trade as "turner" in an engineering works so I would imagine his skills were useful for munitions work.

He was posted to the Mediterranean  26.7.15 to 11.11.15 which I believe means he was involved in Gallipoli. He was invalided back to England from that posting. 

Researching the Bedfordshire Regiment and Gallipoli are now on my to do list.

 

One other thing. It seems the second photo I posted is not of my grandfather but possibly of my great great uncle. My Mum always said it was my grandfather but when you pointed out the naval connection it didn't add up. I have managed to find naval records for Frank Holt who was indeed an Engine room Artificer. I have no idea why Mum said it was of her Dad and sadly she is not here to ask but you have opened up another fascinating line of research, thank you.

[FROGSMILE]

22 minutes ago, Lois said:

 

Yes, it's a sobering thought.

 

The 1911 census lists his trade as "turner" in an engineering works so I would imagine his skills were useful for munitions work.

He was posted to the Mediterranean  26.7.15 to 11.11.15 which I believe means he was involved in Gallipoli. He was invalided back to England from that posting. 

Researching the Bedfordshire Regiment and Gallipoli are now on my to do list.

 

One other thing. It seems the second photo I posted is not of my grandfather but possibly of my great great uncle. My Mum always said it was my grandfather but when you pointed out the naval connection it didn't add up. I have managed to find naval records for Frank Holt who was indeed an Engine room Artificer. I have no idea why Mum said it was of her Dad and sadly she is not here to ask but you have opened up another fascinating line of research, thank you.

I was glad to help.  It has been interesting and you can be proud of your Bedfordshire Regt forebear.  Not only was he an auxiliary, citizen-soldier for some considerable time, but he served in the front line at war, and then assisted the national war effort in munitions too.  One final point I would point out is that his rank as CQMS would also have helped a little in preserving his life.  Each company had such a man and he was the vital link between the battalion rear echelon, where it’s ammunition, rations, water and fuel were kept (generally located not too far from Brigade HQ) and the companies forward positions.  Each evening he would have been busy ensuring that the resupplies went forward under the cover of darkness to his company.  It was a hazardous task for those doing the carrying, but generally less so for him as the organiser.

Edited 20 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[travers61]

The Bedfordshire Regiment War Diaries are transcribed on this useful website, which has much info about all battalions of the regt in WW1:

 

http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/5thbn/5thbattalion.html

[GoodersUK]

On 17/01/2020 at 09:51, Coldstreamer said:

and the stag on his collar is Beds emblem 

Pedant mode on, strictly speaking it's a hart, rather than a stag*, crossing a ford. It is adapted from Hertfordshire's coat of arms. Despite the title, at that time the Bedfordshire Regiment recruited from both Beds and Herts, hence the name change in 1919. Bedfordshire didn't have a coat of arms of its own so adopted the emblem from Hertfordshire's.

NB, I'm getting some pre WW1 pictures colourised and came across this post searching for the right colours for the home service frock coat.

*both are male deer, historically a stag was 4-5 years old and a hart over 5 years. These days we just use stag for adult male deer.

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, GoodersUK said:

Pedant mode on, strictly speaking it's a hart, rather than a stag*, crossing a ford. It is adapted from Hertfordshire's coat of arms. Despite the title, at that time the Bedfordshire Regiment recruited from both Beds and Herts, hence the name change in 1919. Bedfordshire didn't have a coat of arms of its own so adopted the emblem from Hertfordshire's.

NB, I'm getting some pre WW1 pictures colourised and came across this post searching for the right colours for the home service frock coat.

*both are male deer, historically a stag was 4-5 years old and a hart over 5 years. These days we just use stag for adult male deer.

Tongue in cheek, but as you’re quoting pedantry then I should point out that your “home service frock coat” is actually a full dress tunic.

A frock is an undress, loose fitting scarlet working garment, and a frock coat is also undress, double breasted, dark blue, and worn by officers only. 

Edited 6 December , 2022 by FROGSMILE

[GoodersUK]

1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said:

Tongue in cheek, but as you’re quoting pedantry then I should point out that your “home service frock coat” is actually a full dress tunic.

A frock is an undress, loose fitting scarlet working garment, and a frock coat is also undress, double breasted, dark blue, and worn by officers only. 

Touché.

[steve fuller]

Wondered why his face was familiar, then found hat I had contact from another descendant (surname Breed, if you know him?) and we met some 10 years ago now, via the regimental website. He has his medals and plenty of other badges he kept, lovely personal collection.

Sergeant Holt spent time in the Machine Gun Section while on Gallipoli - I have a copy of a photo of him (from the chap above) with the M.G. section at St Albans, before they sailed to Gallipoli. Unsure if he would want me to share it here so will see if I can contact him and ask! Also pics of his medals, etc.

I had two relatives in that battalion on Gallipoli so have done the subject to death. When you're done with your own research into the subject, please let me know if I can help with anything, either via here or directly by email (in my signature below, as is the website).

[steve fuller]

On 20/01/2020 at 16:39, Lois said:

One other thing. It seems the second photo I posted is not of my grandfather but possibly of my great great uncle. My Mum always said it was my grandfather but when you pointed out the naval connection it didn't add up. I have managed to find naval records for Frank Holt who was indeed an Engine room Artificer. I have no idea why Mum said it was of her Dad and sadly she is not here to ask but you have opened up another fascinating line of research, thank you.

Sorry, should have clarified that the man in the photo here is definitely the same man I looked into for Mr Breed and who is part of the M.G.S. photo. So he's definitely CQMS Thomas Holt.

Have emailed him, hopefully it is still active ... 

He was invalided from Gallipoli through illness rather than wounds, which is no shock given how dysentery caused more casualties than combat on Gallipoli. Surprising he came through their first battle as the regimental history records that the M.G.S. officer (Frank Shoosmith) and one Other Rank were the only men left standing from the M.G.S. by the day's end. Perhaps Thomas was lightly wounded and recovered. My Great Grandfather was in the M.G.S. and seems to have been the Other Rank as he was still going the day after the battle. I imagine they knew one another, both being part of a small section of specialists. 

[steve fuller]

http://bedfordregiment.org.uk/5thbn/5thbtnphotos1.html - is on group photos here. I have clearer images on my laptop at home (at work now so cannot upload them!)