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Remembered Today:

Ideas on regiment please


Lois

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Hi all

 

I am trying to identify the man in this photo found in an old family album.

I thought it might be Thomas Henry [William] Holt who was in the 5th Btn Bedfordshire Regiment from 1908 to 1916 and prior to that in the 3rd Btn Bedfordshire regiment from 1894 to 1908. However the badge on his belt doesn't look like the Bedfordshire's.

 

Any help you can give me would be much appreciated.

 

 

Thomas Henry Holt unconfirmed.jpg

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I am no expert but his collar dog looks the same as the centre of the regimental cap badge. He looks very young to be a serjeant.

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Ah yes, I see what you mean. From what I can tell from the service record if it is Thomas Henry Holt he was made Sergt in 1909, 32 years old.

Edited by Lois
typo
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The shoulder title looks like it might be 'Bedford' - The 'F' being at the bottom centre of the curve.
image.png

Craig

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Hi the stitching on the epaulet is BEDFORD with possibly a number above, the buckle is the standard type for the period with DIeu et mon droit

Edited by Dave1418
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and the stag on his collar is Beds emblem 

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more over, why do you think its this chap?

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He looks very like a picture I have of my maternal grandfather. I found the image in an old family album mostly taken in Luton which is where my Holt side of the family came from. I suppose an informed guess would be a fair description. 

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1 hour ago, Lois said:

He looks very like a picture I have of my maternal grandfather.

Would you like to post that image?

I'm sure there are several here who would be willing to give their opinion as to whether it is likely to be the same person.

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His unit is 3rd Volunteer Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment I think, which later became 5th (Territorial Force) Battalion Bedfordshire Regiment after the reorganisation of 1908.  There was also a 3rd Militia Battalion simultaneously until 1908, but I don’t think that was his unit.
The shoulder title is in 3-rows and appears to be 3 V BEDFORD.  If the photo is later than 1907 then it would be T 5 BEDFORD.  He wears a 7-button undress scarlet frock of home service pattern for a non-Royal English line regiment, with jam pot cuffs phased out from 1902 onwards.  These stayed longer in service with the VB and TF units.  They were replaced by either pointed facings to the cuff, or sometimes no coloured cuff at all, depending on the pattern of the garment.

The musketry badge (Marksman) on his sleeve suggests that the cup might be for a shooting competition.

 

8200C1DE-A898-4309-90FC-FBF01BDD1DEE.jpeg

78075B68-4230-45DC-AB48-26C9073A850E.jpeg

49B0CCAD-68E5-4091-A580-E96906BF730F.jpeg

6AC9E278-8270-4A5F-8155-1F9FF39EB6DC.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Here is my maternal grandfather Sidney Harold Holt. I think the picture posted above is his father Thomas Henry Holt. There seems to be a strong family resemblance. What do you think? 

 

 

SidneyHaroldHolt1.jpeg.jpeg

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With his double breasted ‘monkey jacket’ and cap badge this man appears to be a Royal Navy chief petty officer of some type.  The absence of a collar badge suggests that he is a chief engine room, or electrical, ‘artificer’.  See: https://www.uniform-reference.net/insignia/rn/rn_ww1_ranks_enlisted_1.html

 

4DDB7814-398E-4E32-96C1-BC7910F14044.jpeg

F59678D6-E2C0-429E-931A-BC2EBD2EEA77.jpeg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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5 hours ago, Lois said:

Having this information will be a real help to my research. Thank you all.

 

Something that puzzled me, Louis, is the absence of Austrian knots as part of his cuff facings.  These were a strong and invariable feature of Volunteer Battalion uniforms and so if you are positive that the number of his initial battalion was 3rd then I will change my comment above and say that his initial unit was the 3rd Militia Battalion, which became a part of the Bedfordshire Regiment in July 1881 and became the 3rd Special Reserve Battalion in 1908.  If that is so, it would mean that he left the Militia in 1908 and joined instead the newly formed Territorial Force 5th Battalion that was created from the rump (residue) of the old 3rd Volunteer Battalion, some of whose members chose to leave rather than accept the entirely new and differing, Territorial Force terms and conditions of service.

 

Afternote:  It seems that only the VB full dress 'tunic' universally had the Austrian knots and not usually the undress 'frock' that is worn in your photo, so my original post above stands.  See the following link for a similar example of a VB frock: https://www.tameside.gov.uk/MuseumsandGalleries/Object-Focus-Sergeant-John-Frankland’s-Tunic

 

VB Tunic with Austrian cuff.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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Greetings from Sherwood Forest

 

Just to put in my two groats worth.  I believe that the photograph of the young sergeant was taken between 1902 and 1908. The crown on his General Service belt buckle

has a Kings Crown which puts it in the reign of Edward 7th.  The crossed rifles marksmanship badge on his sleeve appear to have magazines which point to a later date.

The marksman's badge  illustrated by Frogsmile shows crossed muzzle loading rifles of an earlier period. 

Any chance of doing a close up of the inscription on the cup?

                                                    Old Robin Hood

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25 minutes ago, OLD ROBIN HOOD said:

Greetings from Sherwood Forest

 

Just to put in my two groats worth.  I believe that the photograph of the young sergeant was taken between 1902 and 1908. The crown on his General Service belt buckle

has a Kings Crown which puts it in the reign of Edward 7th.  The crossed rifles marksmanship badge on his sleeve appear to have magazines which point to a later date.

The marksman's badge  illustrated by Frogsmile shows crossed muzzle loading rifles of an earlier period. 

Any chance of doing a close up of the inscription on the cup?

                                                    Old Robin Hood

 

Yes, I agree with you regarding the date.  Here is the bullion version of the marksman badge.  I'm fairly sure now about the original response given above and it follows a logical path from 3rd VB to 5th TF, essentially the exact same unit, but under different terms and conditions of service (as introduced by Sec of State for War, Haldane).

 

Marksman and GC badge.jpg

Edited by FROGSMILE
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20 hours ago, OLD ROBIN HOOD said:

Any chance of doing a close up of the inscription on the cup?

I've cropped the image to just the cup but I'm struggling to make anything out.

I'm afraid I don't have a decent photo editing package so I can't do anything sophisticated with it. 

 

cup.jpg

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21 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

See the following link for a similar example of a VB frock: https://www.tameside.gov.uk/MuseumsandGalleries/Object-Focus-Sergeant-John-Frankland’s-Tunic

Thanks for the link. I'm learning such a lot from this exercise.

 

20 hours ago, FROGSMILE said:

I'm fairly sure now about the original response given above and it follows a logical path from 3rd VB to 5th TF, essentially the exact same unit, but under different terms and conditions of service (as introduced by Sec of State for War, Haldane).

 

I could post a bit of Thomas Holt's service record if it is allowed (copyright?) and of any use . I'm fairly confident from your comments about the uniform that my theory about who is portrayed is reasonable if not yet proven. 

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3 minutes ago, Lois said:

Thanks for the link. I'm learning such a lot from this exercise.

 

 

I could post a bit of Thomas Holt's service record if it is allowed (copyright?) and of any use . I'm fairly confident from your comments about the uniform that my theory about who is portrayed is reasonable if not yet proven. 


Yes, you can post his record sheet if you have it. The transition from VB to TF was one that the vast majority of the VB units did.  Some of the men went with the new arrangements set up by Haldane, and some chose to leave. It seems almost certain that your subject underwent the change.

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9 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Yes, you can post his record sheet if you have it. The transition from VB to TF was one that the vast majority of the VB units did.  Some of the men went with the new arrangements set up by Haldane, and some chose to leave. It seems almost certain that your subject underwent the change.

 

Here it is. 

1236523902_GBM_WO363-4_007272179_00396(1).jpg.927c3f0bf0329f57bca4390581134ecf.jpg473515396_GBM_WO363-4_007272179_00398(1).jpg.b9f7257896b0490234dfb5c74e1dfd09.jpg1236523902_GBM_WO363-4_007272179_00396(1).jpg.927c3f0bf0329f57bca4390581134ecf.jpg473515396_GBM_WO363-4_007272179_00398(1).jpg.b9f7257896b0490234dfb5c74e1dfd09.jpg

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15 minutes ago, Lois said:

Sorry I don't know why that post doubled-up the images. Still finding my way around the site.


That’s excellent.  There’s a lot there to examine but as a start point it confirms his transition from 3rd VB to 5th TF as surmised.  Then there’s a section recording all the annual, Summer training camps that he attended and for which he was paid. Then it confirms when he was mobilised for service in WW1, which was known as “embodied”.  That then follows with his record of service throughout WW1.

He reached the then rank of Company Quarter Master Sergeant (CQMS), which was later recategorised as an appointment, but was then temporarily released from service to carry out “Munitions work” in Luton, until final discharge in December 1916.  Statistically it’s difficult to not reach the conclusion that discharge at that point in the war very likely saved his life.

Edited by FROGSMILE
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