Police officers: wound stripes and overseas chevrons in uniform in civilian attire

[Ed Matthews]

Do fellow members know if police officers were permitted to wear official awards such as wound stripes, overseas chevrons or even the silver war badge in uniform? Even better, does anyone have any photographs of officers sporting such tokens?

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Ed Matthews said:

Do fellow members know if police officers were permitted to wear official awards such as wound stripes, overseas chevrons or even the silver war badge in uniform? Even better, does anyone have any photographs of officers sporting such tokens?

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

I’ve seen many policemen from WW1 wearing their medal ribbons in photographs when I was a child, but no other veteran insignia was permitted on police uniform.  Both my father and grandfather were uniformed members of constabularies and I enjoyed talking to those of their colleagues who were wartime soldiers of WW1 and WW2. A few were ex-regulars, but the majority hostilities only.  I hope that helps.

Edited 15 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Ed Matthews]

That's very helpful, many thanks. I've only ever seen officers sporting medal ribbons too but my eye was caught by a 1919 cartoon in Punch magazine depicting a City of London policeman with two wound stripes which prompted my question!

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

Edited 15 January , 2020 by Ed Matthews

[FROGSMILE]

1 hour ago, Ed Matthews said:

That's very helpful, many thanks. I've only ever seen officers sporting medal ribbons too but my eye was caught by a 1919 cartoon in Punch magazine depicting a City of London policeman with two wound stripes which prompted my question!

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

That’s very interesting, Ed. I wonder if that was a formally endorsed act, or some free-lancing.  Given how policemen were inspected daily by the station sergeant at that time, under a relatively strict disciplinary regime, one wonders if perhaps the Metropolitan Police were a little more liberal with their interpretation of constabulary regulations. It’s intriguing.

Edited 15 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Ed Matthews]

It is intriguing. Certainly all of these 'tokens' were official awards and, I suppose, it wouldn't be too much of a stretch to imagine individual forces sanctioning their wear by entitled officers but I've never seen a photograph confirming if this was ever the case.

[kenf48]

As it was a cartoon presumably a representation of the duty armlet.  As I recall City police was red/white, whereas the Met was blue/white, the Met ceased to wear them early 1970s

City Police 1920s - lots of medals

http://www.ploddinthesquaremile.co.uk/the-duty-band/

 

Ken

 

 

[FROGSMILE]

Military medals were and still are an entitlement for wear on police uniform, but I’ve not seen wound stripes, or other service ‘badges’.  It would be interesting to see any evidence of such wear.

 

 

Edited 15 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Ed Matthews]

33 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

As it was a cartoon presumably a representation of the duty armlet.  As I recall City police was red/white, whereas the Met was blue/white, the Met ceased to wear them early 1970s

City Police 1920s - lots of medals

http://www.ploddinthesquaremile.co.uk/the-duty-band/

 

Ken

 

 

 

The wound stripes are shown as distinct from the duty armlet and do, in fact, relate to the punchline of the cartoon itself so they aren't incidental - I'll post it tomorrow. Of course, it all could just be artistic licence for the sake of entertainment!

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

23 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Military medals were and still are an entitlement for wear on police uniform, but I’ve not seen wound stripes, or other service ‘badges’.  It would be interesting to seen any evidence of such wear.

 

 

Superb photographs!  Are any of them identifiable? 

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

[GWF1967]

24 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

 

 

Thanks for posting; this one is superb. 

 I’d wait till he’d finished his shift before I went out on the rob!

[FROGSMILE]

At least three of them are, yes, but I have not troubled to retain their names.

 

17 minutes ago, GWF1967 said:

Thanks for posting; this one is superb. 

 I’d wait till he’d finished his shift before I went out on the rob!

He was a famous sergeant in Greater Manchester Police, whose nickname was scarface.

 

 

Edited 15 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[GWF1967]

2 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

At least three of them are, yes, but I have not troubled to retain their names.

 

He was a famous sergeant in Greater Manchester Police, whose nickname was scarface.

Thanks. 

[Andrew Upton]

15 hours ago, Ed Matthews said:

Do fellow members know if police officers were permitted to wear official awards such as wound stripes, overseas chevrons or even the silver war badge in uniform? Even better, does anyone have any photographs of officers sporting such tokens?

 

I don't believe it was ever officially permitted, but I have seen a number of photographs where particularly Wounded Stripes and Overseas Service Chevrons were being worn by Police officers in the late war/early post-war period, so I believe it may have been more tolerated than anything else (especially given they showed an officer who might have been seen as in a cushy job had done his bit). I have attached a couple of images below.

 

14 hours ago, kenf48 said:

As it was a cartoon presumably a representation of the duty armlet.  As I recall City police was red/white, whereas the Met was blue/white, the Met ceased to wear them early 1970s

City Police 1920s - lots of medals

 

Red/white for the City of London Police versus blue/white for the Metropolitan Police (and most other forces) is indeed correct, however in the Met they were done away with in 1968, with most other forces swiftly following suit. They do seem to crop up (wrongly) in American made programmes with episodes set in England well into the 1970's/80's though (Columbo and Murder She Wrote spring to mind).

 

 

 

 

Edited 16 January , 2020 by Andrew Upton

[FROGSMILE]

Thank you for posting those two photos, Andrew.  Very interesting.  I think you’re very probably right about the ‘tolerated’ aspect.

[kenf48]

Yes thank you Andrew, I recalled wearing it when I went on duty, couldn't quite remember when they were done away with.  

 

I think you're right about tolerated, there was an attempt to stop folk wearing RUC badges/tie pins during the troubles which failed miserably.  

Very interesting to see them being worn, and as on army uniforms though of course there was an affinity with the armed services, even the beat was from a sentry's beat.

I must admit when I joined I was in awe of the medal ribbons, just on my relief the area car driver had flown Lancasters and my Inspector was a submariner, they didn't talk about it though.

 

Ken

 

 

[Dave1418]

Hi

medal ribbons for duty uniform, medals for ceremonies etc, only appointments to be carried or worn. Duty band historically denotes that they’re on duty as lots of officers wore them when not on duty. Different helmet plates for day/ night duty in some forces

[Ken Lees]

On 16/01/2020 at 00:15, FROGSMILE said:

At least three of them are, yes, but I have not troubled to retain their names.

 

He was a famous sergeant in Greater Manchester Police, whose nickname was scarface.

 

 

 

Are these photos in the public domain? I would love to post them on another group, but only with permission if that is necessary.

 

Ken

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Ken Lees said:

 

Are these photos in the public domain? I would love to post them on another group, but only with permission if that is necessary.

 

Ken

Yes, they are in the Public domain. The latter ones were something to do with ‘Scottish Policing’ if I recall correctly.

[Matlock1418]

On 15/01/2020 at 21:03, Ed Matthews said:

Do fellow members know if police officers were permitted to wear official awards such as wound stripes, overseas chevrons or even the silver war badge in uniform?

Re: Silver War Badge

Mick Baker [apparently ex-Derbyshire Constabulary or at least NARPO] in his "Derbyshire’s 1914 – 1919 Roll of Honour" writes [at bottom of page 1 next to an image of a SWB]:

"The ‘Silver War Badge’ introduced in September 1916 to identify those men who had been invalided out of the military. In 1918 permission was granted to those County constables entitled to this badge to wear it on their right upper arm, sergeants wore it on the right cuff."

http://www.derbysnarpo.co.uk/uploads/1/0/5/3/10539891/missing_in_action_derbyshire.pdf 

 

Derbyshire Police Museum might be of wider interest too:

https://www.derbyshire.police.uk/police-forces/derbyshire-constabulary/areas/derbyshire-force-content/about-us/about-derbyshire-constabulary/derbyshire-police-museum

Edited 17 January , 2020 by Matlock1418
addit

[Glengarry1950]

Hi Troops,

Police Sergeant William Mackintosh (relative) joined Haddington Police age 19 on 1st May 1908, he advanced to 1st Grade 3rd Class Constable in 1914, continued until resigning for the purpose of joining the Army 12 March 1917, on his short service papers, previous military service Vol Bn 7th Royal Scots 7 years, sent to Fort George Inverness joined the Seaforth Highlanders, Reg No S/21059 landed in France 30.7.17 posted 8th Seaforth's 'C' Coy Wounded in Action 27th August 1917, Hospital, returned home convalescent Discharged no longer fit for military service 26 May 1919. Re-joined Police, Photograph with dog E Div Haddington Police and second photograph A Div Edinburgh Police 1928, although he would have qualified for a wound Stripe none displayed as per regulations, but medal ribands are, WW1 War & Victory Medals and George V 1911 Coronation Medal.

Best

Hiram

Edited 17 January , 2020 by Glengarry1950

[Dave1418]

John McAulay

born 27/12/1888 Glasgow city police
VC and DCM winner with the 1 batt Scott’s Guards(image is from Wikipedia)

[Ed Matthews]

On 16/01/2020 at 12:31, Andrew Upton said:

 

I don't believe it was ever officially permitted, but I have seen a number of photographs where particularly Wounded Stripes and Overseas Service Chevrons were being worn by Police officers in the late war/early post-war period, so I believe it may have been more tolerated than anything else (especially given they showed an officer who might have been seen as in a cushy job had done his bit). I have attached a couple of images below.

 

 

Fantastic pictures Andrew and great to see some photographic evidence of wound stripes actually being worn in uniform. However, I'd be very surprised if such personalisation was simply 'tolerated' and  feel sure there must have been official sanction by the individual forces/constabularies concerned for entitled individuals to wear them in uniform. 

 

Thanks again for posting these!

 

Best wishes

 

Ed

Edited 19 January , 2020 by Ed Matthews

[Ed Matthews]

On 17/01/2020 at 13:34, Matlock1418 said:

Re: Silver War Badge

Mick Baker [apparently ex-Derbyshire Constabulary or at least NARPO] in his "Derbyshire’s 1914 – 1919 Roll of Honour" writes [at bottom of page 1 next to an image of a SWB]:

"The ‘Silver War Badge’ introduced in September 1916 to identify those men who had been invalided out of the military. In 1918 permission was granted to those County constables entitled to this badge to wear it on their right upper arm, sergeants wore it on the right cuff."

http://www.derbysnarpo.co.uk/uploads/1/0/5/3/10539891/missing_in_action_derbyshire.pdf 

 

Derbyshire Police Museum might be of wider interest too:

https://www.derbyshire.police.uk/police-forces/derbyshire-constabulary/areas/derbyshire-force-content/about-us/about-derbyshire-constabulary/derbyshire-police-museum

 

Thank you Matlock for the excellent links, especially Derbyshire NARPO one. I have an interest in the Grenadier Guards too and many of those listed are familiar names to me.

 

The specific reference to the Silver War Badge is fascinating especially the instruction for it to be worn on their right upper arm/cuff as appropriate. In civilian attire, the badge, as most folks are probably aware, was to be worn on the right lapel (and indeed by re-enlisted military personnel until the practice was abolished in 1922). I wonder if there are any photographs of Derbyshire police officers sporting the badge?

 

Do you have contact details for Mick Baker?

Edited 19 January , 2020 by Ed Matthews

[Matlock1418]

 

13 minutes ago, Ed Matthews said:

The specific reference to the Silver War Badge is fascinating especially the instruction for it to be worn on their right upper arm/cuff as appropriate

I don't know his source for this wearing or have any photos of it being worn. but ...

 

12 minutes ago, Ed Matthews said:

Do you have contact details for Mick Baker?

Use the NARPO "Contact" link - that worked for me and he quickly e-mailed me back and we took it away from there

[Ed Matthews]

And this is the cartoon from Punch (1919) which prompted by question (and made me smile no end...)

3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said:

 

I don't know his source for this wearing or have any photos of it being worn. but ...

 

Use the NARPO "Contact" link - that worked for me and he quickly e-mailed me back and we took it away from there

 

Many thanks for that, will do.

 

All the best

 

Ed

Edited 19 January , 2020 by Ed Matthews

[Coldstreamer]

some great photos and the Punch cartoon is  wonderful

where did you get the cartoon from  ?