Trying to identify rank of my Great Grandfather - Royal Horse Artillery?

[Julia James]

I would be delighted if anyone can give me any information which those in the know my be able to tell from the attached photo of my Great Grandfather, William Smith. I believe he served in the Royal Horse Artillery. He was born in Mid-Lothian Scotland Approx 1878-79 and that's pretty much all I know. Many thanks in advance for anything anyone can provide.

[George Rayner]

Welcome Julia...and good luck with your research.

 

To help us can you give us anything else beyond what you have already? It will enable forum members to start digging.

 

As to rank displayed clearly a sergeant's stripes but what the icon above signifies I don't know. But it wont be long coming....

 

George

Edited 15 January , 2020 by George Rayner

[FROGSMILE]

The photo shows either, a mounted Battery Sergeant Major (BSM) or Battery Quartermaster Sergeant (BQMS - until 1915 both wore the same rank badges in khaki service dress), probably at an annual Summer Firing Camp at a venue such as Salisbury Plain, Lydd and Hythe, Okehampton, Otterburn, or Redesdale.  You can see his badge second from left in the top row.  From his dress it’s not possible to differentiate whether he is Royal Field Artillery, or Royal Horse Artillery.

After 1915 the BSM’s badge changed to a plain crown on the lower sleeve of each arm.  The BQMS badge remained unchanged.

 

Edited 15 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[George Rayner]

Here's a starter for ten from Ancestry

Name:	William Smith
Enlistment Age:	22
Birth Date:	abt 1878
Birth Place:	Currie Midlothian
Enlistment Year:	1900
Regiment:	R. H.& R. F. A.
Regimental Number:	3032/rfa
Attestation Paper:	Yes

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=61068&h=848140&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=JrD1776&_phstart=successSource

 

George

[Julia James]

Wow..... impressed at getting a response so quickly!

OK, his name is William Smith. Married Kate Metcalfe Aug 26th 1899 when he was age 21. I don't have his date of birth. Address at time of marriage was Alexander Street, Carlisle Cumberland. His rank or profession is ''Fitter''.

 

[George Rayner]

Rest of the family in 1911?

William Smith	32
Kate Smith	33
William Smith	10
Henry Smith	8
Arthur Smith	5

 

George

[Matlock1418]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

The photo shows a mounted Battery Sergeant Major or Battery Quartermaster Sergeant (both wore the same rank badges in khaki service dress)

I'm intrigued as to the fact that he has his puttees wound from bottom to top [like infantry]

Is this indicative of his rank?

I thought RHA wound from top to bottom [like cavalry] - or was that just RHA Drivers?

[I always thought mounted wound them from top to to bottom to create greater grip on a horse's flanks and so less likely to be un-seated  - a better horseman than me will probably have the right answer!]

Edited 15 January , 2020 by Matlock1418
addit

[Julia James]

On 1911 Census he lived at Edward Street, Carlisle and Yes George..... those people are the rest of his family

Edited 15 January , 2020 by Julia James

[MaxD]

The attestation paper for 3032 William Smith a farrier  from 1900 shows one year's service (for which he signed on) until 1901 in the Royal Field Artillery and lists a sister Isabella at c/o Assafrey, 171 Sauchiehall St Glasgow.  Is that him?

 

If, as seems likely, he signed on later and achieved the rank in the photo, then he would have been allocated another number I suggest so we'd be looking for another record among the plethora of William Smiths from Midlothian.

 

Max

[George Rayner]

Humbug! thought that was too easy!

 

1911 Census has him as a Mechanic engineer

 

George

[FROGSMILE]

2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said:

I'm intrigued as to the fact that he has his puttees wound from bottom to top [like infantry]

Is this indicative of his rank?

I thought RHA wound from top to bottom [like cavalry] - or was that just RHA Drivers?

[I always thought mounted wound them from top to to bottom to create greater grip on a horse's flanks and so less likely to be un-seated  - a better horseman than me will probably have the right answer!]

I don’t know why he has chosen to wear his puttees in that particular manner, but while all that you have said regarding policy for the fastening of puttees is true, a man of his rank could, within reason, wear them how he wished.  He was past the stage of being lined up, inspected by a junior officer, and told that he had fastened his leg wear incorrectly.  Before the war RGA were often still wearing leather leggings, and RFA/RHA butcher boots.  Puttees had only been issued on the home establishment (as opposed to Indian Establishment, from whence they had originally come) since 1902-04 (phased issue).

Edited 15 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[travers61]

This census entry for 62 Edward Street, Carlisle on 29th March 1901, seems to fit the family shown above on the 1911 entry. William is shown as an Engine Fitter & one child only, William aged 9 months.

 

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid=7814&h=31130139&indiv=try&o_vc=Record:OtherRecord&rhSource=2352

[TTracer44]

You could try 62362, sgt, dvr, with RHA went out to France 15/8/14 Has an M.I.C

on Ancestry.

Den

[Mark1959]

It is actually 60 Edward St in 1901. They are not there in 1920. Possible death for widow Kate in 1936. OP needs to advise if that is right. Executor Henry an Insurance agent. This Kate was livining in Upperby Road, Carlisle. 

Edited 15 January , 2020 by Mark1959

[travers61]

4 minutes ago, Mark1959 said:

It is actually 60 Edward St in 1911. They are not there in 1920. Possible death for widow Kate in 1936. OP needs to advise if that is right. Executor Henry an Insurance agent. This Kate was livining in Uppeby Road, Carlile. 

 

Yes, my error it was no 60 Edward Street in 1901 census.

[Julia James]

1 hour ago, MaxD said:

The attestation paper for 3032 William Smith a farrier  from 1900 shows one year's service (for which he signed on) until 1901 in the Royal Field Artillery and lists a sister Isabella at c/o Assafrey, 171 Sauchiehall St Glasgow.  Is that him?

 

If, as seems likely, he signed on later and achieved the rank in the photo, then he would have been allocated another number I suggest so we'd be looking for another record among the plethora of William Smiths from Midlothian.

 

Max

I don't have any information about whether William had any siblings. So far not been able to discover much due to the "common-ness" of his name. 

That is definitely his widow Kate who passed away in 1936.

William and Kate's daughter Mary Winifred was born in 1912, she is my Grandmother. She lived on Upperby Rd as did her brother Henry/Harry.

 

Edited 15 January , 2020 by Julia James

[George Rayner]

62362 also has a MM gazetted 2.11.1917

 

George

[Mark1959]

FWR has atranscribed record that says 62362 resided in Oxford.

[Julia James]

4 minutes ago, George Rayner said:

62362 also has a MM gazetted 2.11.1917

 

George

You will have to excuse my ignorance of the terminology. I am new to this. What is MM? What is MIC? 

[George Rayner]

MM Military Medal ranks just below Victoria Cross and for ordinary soldiers

MIC Medal Index Card lists medals awarded and regiment served in + other info

 

George

[Michelle Young]

I'd recommend a read of the Long Long Trail guide on researching Soldiers for help. (Military Medal and Medal Index Card by the way, but the guide really is worth reading) 

Michelle 

[George Rayner]

Presumably he survived the war Julia?

 

Has anybody checked the pension record on Fold3?

 

George

Edited 15 January , 2020 by George Rayner

[Julia James]

I haven't been able to discover whether he survived the war. Don't know his date of death but it was definitely before 1 Oct 1934. That is the date of my grandmother's wedding and on the marriage cert it states her father William is deceased. 

[Mark1959]

Possible Death for William..... Of Ivy Cootage, London Road, Carlisle died 2/6/1928. Probate Carlisle 4th Dec to Kate Smith widow. Effects £1693 19s 3d. Another address to try to work from to prove or disprove. Death Registration for what appear to be this chap gives his age as 50. Death Reg 2nd Quarter 1928

Edited 15 January , 2020 by Mark1959

[Julia James]

Mark 1959. Think you have hit on a winner there! I have some letters in my possession from when Kate passed away concerning her will, and the sale of Ivy Cottage London Road. This is all brilliant, so glad I stumbled upon this forum! Thanks for all your help folks!

Julia