Alfred Edward Shaw

[maudson]

I wonder if someone can help with a man called Alfred Edward Shaw who was in the 6th Northamptonshire (40292) in France from 28th September 1916 to 9th October when transferred to 32nd Royal Fusiliers (60242). He was killed on 22nd September 1917. I have the 32nd War Diary etc. I wondered if I would be correct in thinking that he was sent in the 6th to Etaples or other base and was transferred to the 32nd on the 10th October to go to the front. The 32nd's War Diary does tell of a large number of men joining the battalion in the few days from 12th October. A good number seemed to have followed the same path and also to have been killed. Can his Northamptonshire five figure number  give an approximate enlistment date?  I have tried without success to follow up other men on the Medal Roll page. Many thanks for any guidance.#

David

[ss002d6252]

1 hour ago, maudson said:

Can his Northamptonshire five figure number  give an approximate enlistment date?

It can assist but so can the war gratuity (known services numbers are not always fully reflective of service, whereas the war gratuity is).

 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/60506/42511_6117463_0107-00258?pid=678453&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DuJS2952%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D60506%26gsln%3DShaw%26cp%3D0%26msddy%3D1917%26msddm%3D9%26msddd%3D22%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3D784%26redir%3Dfalse%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D2%26h%3D678453%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D3&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=uJS2952&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true

 

It should be noted that his death is recorded as a range between 19 & 22 - this means that his exact date of death was not known - presumably they were in action for the period and, as such, exact records were not kept (which is pretty common).

 

Running this tells us that

 

https://www.wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/

Craig

[kenf48]

Acknowledging the accuracy of the gratuity calculator:-

 

 

Pte Alcock 40260 Northants was embodied 3/4 Bn. 6.9.1915., to France via 3rd Bn 27/9/1916 destined for the 6th Bn but posted to the 32nd Royal Fusiliers (60212) as above.

 

Pte 4909/40265 Brown was embodied November 1915 transferred to 6th Bn then again to 32nd.

 

So it appears what you are missing is his original 4 digit TF  number.  These men were sent to France and at 17 IBD were posted to the 6th Battalion Northants and renumbered in that series, the authority was A.O. 204 and ACI 1499/ 1916 which, following the Military Service Act effectively said 'Home Service' TF soldiers could be posted to regular or 'service' units.  The men in this draft were then renumbered to the RF on transfer on the 10th.  October 1914, according to the LLT predates the formation of the 2/4th, so there was probably another reason for him being in a reserve Battalion.  The 1/4th went to the Dardanelles in 1915 and remained in the Middle East.

 

2159/ legitimately enlisted in the 4th Bn August 1914, aged 17, though it appears he still added a year as another document has him enlisting at 16 in 1913.

He was posted to the 3/4 Reserve Bn as too young for active service overseas eventually he was renumbered 40229 and posted to the 2nd Northants.  He volunteered to serve overseas on 2 occasions according to his application for the TFM, the second in February 1916, presumably when he came of age.

 

Phew had me worried for a moment there Craig, should never have doubted

 

Ken

 

 

[maudson]

Many thanks Craig.

 

Does this indicate that he was probably with another training/reserve battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment (probably with a different Regimental Number) and was transferred to 6th and sent in France on 18th September 1916 but was then posted to the 32nd RF almost immediately? He is shown as a Lance Corporal  in the Soldier's Effects Form etc. next to the stamp you have copied. Hope that makes sense.

 

David

 

Edited 15 January , 2020 by maudson
intervening post by Ken

[ss002d6252]

45 minutes ago, maudson said:

He is shown as a Lance Corporal  in the Soldier's Effects Form et

As a Lance Corporal was still substantively ranked as a Private the war gratuity was only accrued on that substantive rank of Private (Lance Corporal was an appointment of a Private, rather than a rank).

 

As per Ken's additional info it would confirm he had service with an unknown number between (earliest - based on the Gratuity) Oct 14 and  Nov 15 when the 4029X numbers seem to have been issued. This would indicate that the numbers we know for him don't cover the period of Oct 14 - Nov 15. We can never say for certain but it seems he was possibly 4th battalion, with a number in the 2XXX range.

 

See posts below for extra information - thanks George

 

Craig

[George Rayner]

Ancestry can help out there-I think!

Name:	Alfred Edward Shaw
Residence:	Ringstead, Thrapston
Death Date:	22 Sep 1917
Death Place:	France and Flanders
Enlistment Place:	Northampton
Rank:	L Corporal
Regiment:	London Regiment
Battalion:	32nd Battalion
Regimental Number:	60242
Type of Casualty:	Killed in action
Theatre of War:	Western European Theatre
Comments:	Formerly 3201, Northants Regt.

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=1543&h=23210&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=JrD1774&_phstart=successSource

 

George

[maudson]

Thanks George. I am not sure how I managed to miss that. It seems to all fit together now with everybody's help..

Best Wishes

David

[ss002d6252]

Seems he was #3201 Northants then - good spot by George

 

Craig

[George Rayner]

Pleased to help.

 

George

[maudson]

Many thanks to Ken, Craig and George for sorting it out. Below is what I have so far written Do you think this is a fair summary of what you have all found out or am I missing the point?

 

Alfred first enlisted some time in the month from October 24^th 1914 when he was just seventeen years old. It would have been in one of the Territorial Battalions of the Northamptonshire Regiment which volunteers could join at this earlier age. He was given the Regimental Number 3201. The men trained at weekends or in the evenings and went away to a summer camp. Territorials were not obliged to serve overseas but were enlisted knowing that, in the event of war, they could be called upon for full-time service (“embodied”). In theory men could not serve abroad until they were nineteen years old and, although some did, it appears that Alfred was posted when he was just 19 years old

He was sent to the 17^th Infantry Base Depot (IBD) at Etaples near the French coast. The IBD was a holding camp for receiving men on arrival from England. Some of these camps were not liked, especially by the New Zealanders, because of the harsh discipline.  The men were kept in training while awaiting being sent to a unit at the front. Alfred was posted to the 6^th Northamptonshires on 28^th September 1916 with a new Regimental Number, 40292.

The Service Medal and Award Roll shows that a number of men transferred from the 6^th Battalion of the Northamptonshire Regiment to the 32nd Battalion of the Royal Fusiliers on 10^th October 1916.

Any corrections very welcome

David