Help interpreting record of John Houston Mcteer

[Magichour]

Hello, I have my great uncles war record Clyde Z/4316 from the national archives but I don’t know how to interpret it. Images below.  Can anyone help me please? Also is there anyway of finding out who received the war gratuity as I can find no record of him after the shore demob.  Any help much appreciated.

[Coldstreamer]

welcome to the forum

what is it specifically you want to interpret please so we dont tell you things you have already worked out

[Polar Bear]

As Coldstreamer says please tell us which bits you don't understand. I will say I love this card for while his conduct is consistently rated as VG (Very Good) he is ordered to spend 14 days in the cells!

 

To that I will merely add that the various 'Victory' references means that his administrative port was Portsmouth. The Venerable references are likely to be the ageing pre dreadnought battleship of the same name which by the time he was attached to her was frequently acting as a depot ship albeit occasionally pressed in to action as required. Of course being a depot ship he may actually have served on one of the minelaying trawlers that much of the time she was the depot ship for.

[Magichour]

Hello, I would like to know What the different ships mean or were they shore based assignments, I’ve seen conflicting reports when doing a google search.  Were they all naval duties or I believe some people moved to the army?  i believe to C Palace means going for training.  Also what is the PIC or PTC number under his name mean.  The other thing is if a war gratuity was paid does that mean he died?  Sorry for so many questions, he was my mums uncle though she only heard about him never met him.  She is 90 now and frail and I’m trying to find out about him for her.  Thank you. 

Yes I noticed the cells!!

[Polar Bear]

Ok. Here goes.

 

'Victory' is administrative. Somewhat simplistically it is a big pool of sailors (etc) from which people are plucked as required. In this case (as stated above) it is the Portsmouth pool.

Venerable is as above.

Wallington is the administrative title for the auxilliary patrol base at Grimsby. The Test in brackets is the ship he served on. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Test_(1905) for simplified overview.

 

Hope that helps.

[Polar Bear]

Have just noticed I havent answered all your questions. To Crystal Palace does mean for training. Technically it was HMS Victory 6 I believe.

 

It also looks like to me he was entirely naval. Beyond that I don't think I can help. Sorry.

[Magichour]

Thank you Polar Bear, very helpful and much appreciated.

[seaJane]

37 minutes ago, Magichour said:

The other thing is if a war gratuity was paid does that mean he died?

No, it was like a kind of thank you for taking part, and was paid both to surviving men and to their relatives if they died - https://wargratuity.wordpress.com/2015/08/16/what-was-the-war-gratuity/

 

He did not die, as you can see from the column in the top image, "If discharged, whither and for what cause", which has at its foot "Shore Demob'd", that is he was demobbed/discharged ashore (also, as a double check, his name is not included among the dead on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission website https://www.cwgc.org).

 

Men from the Navy did not usually join the army, but they may have been transferred to the Royal Naval Division which fought ashore.

[Magichour]

Thank you SeaJane

[Jon_B]

He joined the Royal Naval Division (RND) on 7 May 1915. The typed record is his RND record.

 

10.05.15 he was sent to Crystal Palace for training. The RND was the infantry division of the Royal Navy, so he was trained for fighting on land.

 

Rated Ordinary Seaman (OS).

10.08.15 rated Able Seaman (AB)

17.09.15 rated Leading Seaman (LS)

 

September 2015 attached to HMS 'Palace' (Crystal Palace) as a LS.

 

February 1916 he was sent to the sea-draft battalion depot and on 15.02.16 to Portsmouth to enroll in the Royal Navy Volunteer Reserve (RNVR).

 

The hand-written record is his RNVR record, which lists the ships he served in until demob.

 

I don't know what the PIC number on his RNVR record is.

 

Jon

Edited 15 January , 2020 by Jon_B

[horatio2]

He was enrolled, on 7 May 1915, into the Clyde Division RNVR for service, notionally, in the RND. However, on arrival at Crystal Palace for recruit training he was selected for sea service and placed in the sea service training battalion. He never served with the RND but was sent to Portsmouth and straight on to the base at Immingham. His sea service was in the destroyer HMS TEST, which was based on the destroyer depot ship HMS WALLINGTON at Immingham, on the Humber north of Grimsby.

Later service, when not in the Portsmouth barracks (HMS VICTORY), was in HMS VENERABLE, an old battleship used as a floating base and depot ship. His only sea-going service was in HMS TRENT.

PIC = Protection and Identity Certificate, issued to men on demob so that they could identify themselves to the authorities.

N.B. although his RND record card records advancement to Leading Seaman, his RNVR sea service record has him as Able Seaman throughout. His two medals were issued in the rating of Able Seaman. I incline towards the RND card being in error.

 

10 hours ago, Polar Bear said:

while his conduct is consistently rated as VG (Very Good) he is ordered to spend 14 days in the cells!

Another anomaly in the written record. A punishment of 14 days cells in Jan 1918 should have resulted in a downgrading of his character to 'Good' for the year ending 31 Dec 1918. No such entry for 1918 was made, probably because he was demobilised on 16 Jan 1919 and his final character assessment (for the 16 days of 1919) was, correctly, 'VG'.

[Jon_B]

Horatio2,

 

If the RND record is correct he was sent to Crystal Palace on 10.5.15, but not transferred to the sea service training battalion until February 2016, having been attached to C. Palace in September 1915. Does that not indicate that he spent time at C. Palace, including training, before being sent to Portsmouth?

 

The first period of service on the RNVR record is 15.02.16, with RND written on the first line to indicate prior service.

 

Jon

 

 

 

 

 

[horatio2]

27 minutes ago, Jon_B said:

Does that not indicate that he spent time at C. Palace, including training, before being sent to Portsmouth?

I did not intend to suggest otherwise. He was at Crystal Palace from 10 May1915 to 15 Feb 1916, initially in a Miscellaneous [training] Battalion - not in one of the numbered RND (training) Battalions - followed by (in the first two weeks of February 1916) a rapid transfer to a Sea Service Battalion, draft to Portsmouth and straight on to WALLINGTON. As indicated, his RND "prior service" was notional as he appears not to have been in the RND training system at Crystal Palace. 

[Jon_B]

I see now, thanks for clarifying.

 

Jon

[Magichour]

Thank you all, this is a wonderful forum, so helpful