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cooky

1st Cheshires 27th July 1916

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cooky

Hello all,

Has any you got maps or info on the operations of the Royal Naval division on this date. Especially in relation to the 7th Royal Fusiliers and the Artist Rifles. 

In anticipation,

Cooky.

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cooky

Sorry ,

Got confused with the technology. The Cheshires and Norfolks carried out a night attack between Delville and High woods. Additionally the 1st Cheshires put in a further action to locate a strong point in the same area based on a map reference. Disaster followed and a local boy was lost amongst all his comrades. None ware seen again. The local lad was,

Pvt Percy Jinks ,Thiepval memorial.

Cooky.

 

Ps,sorry about my ineptitude in posting this topic.

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thetrenchrat22

I’ll look at the regimental history tonight.  As I’m sure the details are in there
 

If I remember rightly, that 2 patrols were sent out under 2 different officers.  None of either patrol was seen again.  I think that second patrol was sent out to look for the first patrol. 
 

alan

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laughton

7:10 am attack on Longueval by 1st Norfolks, who along with the 1st Bedfords cleaned up the village. The Germans held the northern outskirts. 1st Cheshires attacked 8:38 am on former German strong point. First party led by 2Lt Prout was followed by two others led by 2Lt Duckworth and 2Lt Barthelemy. Met by cross fire from machine guns. Prout's party nearly all KIA or WIA. Prout's body not recovered. Other two parties suffered heavily (so there were three groups). Duckworth WIA and MIA. Lt Richardson sent in to support byt MG fire forced retirement.

 

CWGC shows 24 of 1st Cheshires lost that day, 20 remain unknown. Ptes Dowd and Latimer  found at 57c.C.11.c.2.4 and Pte Parsons, with another unknown - buried together, at 57c.S.11.c.8.9.

 

1539862139_DelvilleWood27July1916Remains.jpg.f20a3c9c636bd7d13af91456a0928a95.jpg

 

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PRC

There is nothing specific to the 1st Cheshires in the War Diaries of either the 1st Norfolks or 1st Bedfords apart from one brief mention in an appendix to the diary of the 1st Bedfords.

 

15th Infy. Bde. 1st Bedfords

The Brigadier-General Commanding wishes to express to all ranks of the Brigade his great admiration at the magnificent manner in which they captured the Village of LONGUEVAL yesterday. To the 1st NORFOLK Regiment and the 1st BEDFORDSHIRE Regiment and some of the 16th ROYAL WARWICKSHIRE Regiment, who were able to get into the enemy with the bayonet, he offers his heartiest congratulations. He knows it is what they have been waiting and wishing for many months. The 1st CHESHIRE Regiment made a most gallant and determined effort to reach their objective and failed through no fault of their own. The way in which the Troops behaved under the subsequent heavy bombardment was worthy of the best traditions of the British Army The Brigade captured 4 Officers and 159 other ranks.

http://www.bedfordregiment.org.uk/1stbn/1stbtn1916appendices.html

 

The 1st Norfolks were certainly engaged in the sector s.11 - witness this reference in this detailed operational report broken down by Company that was an appendix in their War Diary.

 

D Coy

 

No.13 Platoon advanced to crossroads s.17.b.4/4 and went forward with B Company. When B Company was held up by the redoubt, this Platoon went forward with the BEDFORDS, taking up a position S.11.b.5/3 to S.11.d.6/4. This position was gained about 8.50 am.

 

No.14 Platoon went around the South side of the Church into an old German fire trench just North of the Church and part of it reinforced B taking the Redoubt. Part of this Platoon reinforced right of B company at s.17.b.8/7. Lieut CLODE was in front of this Platoon and was wounded near the church at 7.30 am. On the right were the BERKSHIRE Regiment who were making a strong point in the WOOD.

 

No.16 Platoon went forward into old German fire trench. They were then taken forward by Second - Lieut. BROWN to reinforce B Company. No.13 Platoon, having advanced with the BEDFORDS withdrew to the line held by the B Company at about 9-0pm. at which time the SOUTH STAFFORDS took over the part of the line held by the Platoon and the BEDFORDSHIRE Regiment. During the evening the Company of the 1st Bedfordshire Regiment in front asked for a party of men to fill a gap on their right and about 10 men of 16 Platoon were sent up.

 

The Prisoners taken belonged to the 8th BRANDENBURG Regt and the 12th GUARD GRENADIERS. Those who have been at DOUAMONT said that the artillery was worse at LONGUEVAL.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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WhiteStarLine

Hi Cooky,

 

The casualty recovery locations from Richard are shown with 2 red dots.  The cross-roads are in Longueval, blue dot and the other positions mentioned by Peter are just north.

image.png.3a01e44a4c9d0e29f7e192bc13a58b98.png

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cooky

What a response. Thank you. 

Any more info will be gobbled up by me. Recently retired from the fire service (Manchester ) and kids all grown up...supposedly !

Going to start visiting the western front again with no restrictions. It's been 15 years since I last walked those battlefields . I have many questions that I need help with. Any new visits or stories recommended please tell.

Best wishes to you all, 

Cooky. 

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laughton
46 minutes ago, cooky said:

Going to start visiting the western front again with no restrictions.

 

Living in Canada, I don't have that luxury. Jealous!

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thetrenchrat22

From the regimental history 

 

 

EF4436C2-7BF7-4E85-9E86-DDBC0F626829.jpeg

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cooky

How do you see it with the info/evidence that you have all offered. Cross fire from High Wood to the left and positions to the right. As I recall that area is flat with a slope.German defences on higher ground. 

Cooky.

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WhiteStarLine
33 minutes ago, cooky said:

As I recall that area is flat with a slope

Cooky, this is where Google Street View is helpful as you can select different points and pan around.  This is from the outskirts of Longueval.

image.png.2f70e38b7fd7364496b97ba872018a58.png

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PRC
10 hours ago, laughton said:

Ptes Dowd and Latimer  found at 57c.C.11.c.2.4 and Pte Parsons, with another unknown - buried together, at 57c.S.11.c.8.9.

Dowd, Latimer and 26818 Egerton are recorded as having GRU crosses at their original location, (which presumably were replacements for the original markers). The Grave Registration report covering their reburial is dated May 1922. Similar scenario applies to Parsons, although other than a date stamp in January 1921 on the Grave Registration Report. there is no indication of when the concentration took place.

 

Is it not likely those men were recovered from the battlefield at the time - either by their comrades or a reiieving unit,- and buried in those original locations. Therefore this isn't necessarily the area where the fighting took place or even from where the Cheshires advanced.

 

If not I may be suffering from the fog of war.

 

10 hours ago, laughton said:

1st Cheshires attacked 8:38 am on former German strong point.

 

10 hours ago, PRC said:

When B Company was held up by the redoubt, this Platoon went forward with the BEDFORDS, taking up a position S.11.b.5/3 to S.11.d.6/4. This position was gained about 8.50 am.

 

So the Cheshires attack a believed strongpoint to their front and presumably are heading in an east to north-east direction. Meanwhile less than 15 minutes later a platoon of the Norfolks and an unknown strength of Bedfords are holding a line to the east of the (presumed) Cheshire front, presumably without knowing there might be a German strongpoint to their rear. All the reports talk of heavy artillery fire from both sides and most of the Cheshire dead have no known grave and of the first two groups that went forward, none came back. So if they were struck down by machine gun fire, rather than say being caught by a German barrage intended to isolate the troops who had already successfully attacked, presumably this was being fired over the heads of the Norfolks and Bedfords. Or am I missing something, (as usual!).

 

Cheers,

Peter

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cooky

PRC, 

Fascinating and thought provoking detail.

Many thanks, 

Cooky.

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cooky

Whitestar,

Wish I'd had this technology available to me all those years ago.

Soon be back there again with my new gained knowledge. 

Còoky

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cooky

Are there any records of post war burial locations in this locality. Supposedly they would have been reinterred in Catterpiller Valley, London or Delville Wood cemeteries.

C

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Don Regiano

Another view of the approximate area.  Photo taken from the Longueval to Flers road looking across to High Wood.

 

 

DSC05906.JPG

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Don Regiano
7 minutes ago, cooky said:

Are there any records of post war burial locations in this locality. Supposedly they would have been reinterred in Catterpiller Valley, London or Delville Wood cemeteries.

C

 

Pending a proper answer to your question, here is a body density map showing a very large number in the area in question:

 

 

High Wood body density map.jpg

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JOVE23
21 minutes ago, cooky said:

Are there any records of post war burial locations in this locality. Supposedly they would have been reinterred in Catterpiller Valley, London or Delville Wood cemeteries.

C


@laughton will be your man for this inquiry. I've pinged him so hopefully he stops by again with some more info for you!

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laughton

All the records I have assembled in the ZIP Files are here:

 

F7 C2 CWGC Binders

Once you are in the cemetery you want to check, you download the ZIP file, unzip it (A1 ZIP & UNZIP PROGRAM YOU MAY NEED) to a folder on your computer and then use any image program to go through the pages.

 

The background to this project on the GWF can be found here: CEFSG Sharing Resources with GWF, SAWGP, ANZAC, INDIA, etc.

 

The origins of the BINDERS and ZIP files comes from the work at the CEFSG here:

Edited by laughton
added files for Delville Wood

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cooky

Boy oh boy. This is beyond my wildest  expectations. 

What knowledge you have given me.

Cooky

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