RAMC Soldier ?

[toast]

Hi,

 

My great-grandfather was a stretcher bearer, but I'm not sure if he was R.A.M.C. He was in the military in the second Boer war too (though he would have been a little young), but I'm struggling to find any information on him. His war medals were stolen in the 80s, and all I have are the stories and one photo of him in uniform with an "S.B." band on his arm. He apparently won a medal for bravery.

 

His name was John Henry Parry born in 1887 in Toxteth Park, Lancashire. He survived WW1, and was listed as a Master At Arms in the 1939 register.

 

Any ideas if he's listed in your database?

 

Kind regards,

 

Karl

 

Edit:

Here's the photo: 

Edited 14 January , 2020 by toast
adding photo

[ss002d6252]

I think you're more likely to get a response as a separate thread so I've moved it to its own so that it doesn't get lost in the other.

Craig

[ss002d6252]

 

As a starter there is a #136230 John Henry Parry RAMC who served from 26 Feb 1916 to 18 Oct 1918.

 

Edit:
 

Further info on #136230

 

Lived in Newcastle and Glasgow after the war.

 

The Western Front Records have seveal pension ledgers/cards for him

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/644465616?terms=1019,136230

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/643349246?terms=1019,136230

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/643571279?terms=1019,136230

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/643571771?terms=1019,136230

 

See next post as more likely

 

Craig

[toast]

14 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

 

As a starter there is a #136230 John Henry Parry RAMC who served from 26 Feb 1916 to 18 Oct 1918.

 

Edit:
 

Further info on #136230

 

Lived in Newcastle and Glasgow after the war.

 

The Western Front Records have seveal pension ledgers/cards for him

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/644465616?terms=1019,136230

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/643349246?terms=1019,136230

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/643571279?terms=1019,136230

https://www.westernfrontassociation.com:2061/image/643571771?terms=1019,136230

 

Craig

Hi Craig, thanks!

After the war he stayed in Liverpool until his death, in 1955, so it can't be him. I've been scouring ancestry, the national archives and forces-war-records, but cannot confirm any of the records are him. I imagine if he wasn't in the RAMC, then perhaps he was a regimental SB, so perhaps the King's Regiment (Liverpool)?

 

Kind regards,

 

Karl

[ss002d6252]

This looks like the family in 1911 at an address in Toxteth

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2352&h=5307981&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=uJS2948&_phstart=successSource

 

Which then leads us to this man, the NoK (father) living in the same street as the 1911 census..

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1219/30973_184150-00403?pid=1599328&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D1219%26h%3D1599328%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D2352&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.264918344.639121356.1578986799-1547182126.1578986798

 

Looks like we can rule this man out on further information.

 

Craig

[toast]

5 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said:

This looks like the family in 1911 at an address in Toxteth

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2352&h=5307981&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=uJS2948&_phstart=successSource

 

Which then leads us to this man, the NoK (father) living in the same street as the 1911 census..

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1219/30973_184150-00403?pid=1599328&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?dbid%3D1219%26h%3D1599328%26indiv%3Dtry%26o_vc%3DRecord:OtherRecord%26rhSource%3D2352&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&usePUBJs=true&_ga=2.264918344.639121356.1578986799-1547182126.1578986798

 

Craig

He's not listed on the 1911 census as far as I'm aware. His wife gave birth to my grandfather in 1910, and she is listed on the census with my grandfather - 

 

https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?indiv=1&dbid=2352&h=26169439&tid=&pid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=ILf18&_phstart=successSource

 

My great-great grandfather was Owen Parry.

[toast]

He had worked as a stoker on a ship before, so it may have been why he wasn't listed in the census.

[toast]

In the 1939 register, he is listed as a Master at Arms aboard the SS Scythia (also living with him is his sister, who was widowed in WW1). 
 

https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/61596/tna_r39_4417_4417h_008/26183039?backurl=https://www.ancestry.co.uk/family-tree/person/tree/103427042/person/380025124698/facts/citation/1062223333680/edit/record

[HarryBrook]

On findmypast there is a service record for a John Parry, which might relate to his earlier service, if this the right man.

King's (Liverpool Regt.), 3rd Battalion, Pte. 7943, attested 11 May 1903 (so post Boer War). His next of kin were listed as:- father - Owen, mother - Mary, elder brother - Owen, younger brothers - Lewis and Edward. Their address was 125, Hopwood St., Kirkdale, Liverpool. 

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO96%2F0193%2F262%2F001&parentid=GBM%2FWO96%2F193%2F1162225

[toast]

1 hour ago, HarryBrook said:

On findmypast there is a service record for a John Parry, which might relate to his earlier service, if this the right man.

King's (Liverpool Regt.), 3rd Battalion, Pte. 7943, attested 11 May 1903 (so post Boer War). His next of kin were listed as:- father - Owen, mother - Mary, elder brother - Owen, younger brothers - Lewis and Edward. Their address was 125, Hopwood St., Kirkdale, Liverpool. 

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO96%2F0193%2F262%2F001&parentid=GBM%2FWO96%2F193%2F1162225

Really? That sounds like him! I'm not sure about the address, but His mother was Mary, and he did have an older brother Owen, as well as two younger brothers Lewis and Edward (Though he also had 2 more brothers, Hugh and Henry.)

I just checked the address from their 1901 census, and they lived in Goodwood street, which was a 1 minute walk from Hopwood St!

[toast]

1 hour ago, HarryBrook said:

On findmypast there is a service record for a John Parry, which might relate to his earlier service, if this the right man.

King's (Liverpool Regt.), 3rd Battalion, Pte. 7943, attested 11 May 1903 (so post Boer War). His next of kin were listed as:- father - Owen, mother - Mary, elder brother - Owen, younger brothers - Lewis and Edward. Their address was 125, Hopwood St., Kirkdale, Liverpool. 

https://search.findmypast.co.uk/record?id=GBM%2FWO96%2F0193%2F262%2F001&parentid=GBM%2FWO96%2F193%2F1162225

I'll have to register with them to check it, I can't find the same record on any of my other sources!

[toast]

I just registered and checked the record - yes this is most definitely him! It seems that it is all the information they have, but it's an amazing start! Have been searching for years! Thank you!

[toast]

So 3rd Battalion was a reserve one during WW1, but was that the case before WW1?  

 

Edit - also, in the record, he states he was born in about Jul 1885, it's the same in his marriage certificate. However, in the census records, and the 39 register it says his DoB is 1887 (Sep in the '39 register). I'm guessing people didn't care so much about the accuracy of the register back then! It's almost certainly the same person in each of the records.

Edited 14 January , 2020 by toast

[kenf48]

The record on FMP is to the Militia which, in 1907 became the Special Reserve, men were generally posted to the Reserve Battalion which was usually designated the 3rd Battalion. Pre war most regiments had two active service battalions the 1st and 2nd rotated between home and foreign service across the Empire.

 

That said they tended to remain with the same Regiment, and often transferred from the Militia to the Regular Service, there is unfortunately no record of such a transfer for this man.

I think you should initially be looking at the King's (Liverpool) Regiment, stretcher bearers were regimental posts as well as the RAMC. Unfortunately we can't see his cap badge.

 

There is a WW1  database of men who served in the King's (Liverpool) and it includes a number of men named  J Parry but just four 'J.H.'

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/visit/galleries/soldiers/research/kingsreg/

 

However you mention he won an award for bravery, a J Parry 8533 1st Battalion was awarded the Military Medal London Gazette 14 September 1916.

Paul Nixon's indispensable site suggests he enlisted 1903 - 4 http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/07/kings-liverpool-regiment-1st-2nd.html

Terms of service in 1904 were three years with the colours nine on reserve, which means this man, if it is your man, may have been a reservist when war was declared and would be mobilised in August 1914.

 

Ken

[travers61]

3 hours ago, toast said:

So 3rd Battalion was a reserve one during WW1, but was that the case before WW1?  

 

Edit - also, in the record, he states he was born in about Jul 1885, it's the same in his marriage certificate. However, in the census records, and the 39 register it says his DoB is 1887 (Sep in the '39 register). I'm guessing people didn't care so much about the accuracy of the register back then! It's almost certainly the same person in each of the records.

 

If the 1939 Register dob is correct, this looks like he shaved a couple of years off his age to appear to be 18 or almost 18 when he joined the army in 1903.  

 

He may have had to carry this "military" age on to his marriage certificate (date 1909/10 from 1911 census) as this document may have been produced to the army, if he was on the Army Reserve then.

 

 

 

[toast]

4 hours ago, kenf48 said:

The record on FMP is to the Militia which, in 1907 became the Special Reserve, men were generally posted to the Reserve Battalion which was usually designated the 3rd Battalion. Pre war most regiments had two active service battalions the 1st and 2nd rotated between home and foreign service across the Empire.

 

That said they tended to remain with the same Regiment, and often transferred from the Militia to the Regular Service, there is unfortunately no record of such a transfer for this man.

I think you should initially be looking at the King's (Liverpool) Regiment, stretcher bearers were regimental posts as well as the RAMC. Unfortunately we can't see his cap badge.

 

There is a WW1  database of men who served in the King's (Liverpool) and it includes a number of men named  J Parry but just four 'J.H.'

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/mol/visit/galleries/soldiers/research/kingsreg/

 

However you mention he won an award for bravery, a J Parry 8533 1st Battalion was awarded the Military Medal London Gazette 14 September 1916.

Paul Nixon's indispensable site suggests he enlisted 1903 - 4 http://armyservicenumbers.blogspot.com/2009/07/kings-liverpool-regiment-1st-2nd.html

Terms of service in 1904 were three years with the colours nine on reserve, which means this man, if it is your man, may have been a reservist when war was declared and would be mobilised in August 1914.

 

Ken

Thanks! I have tried that database, but it doesn't bring up anything when I try for some reason. 

Yes, he apparently went over into no man's land to save somebody who'd been shot, and received a medal for bravery. Also, the photo is some point after 1909 (when they married), but I imagine it's more likely at the outbreak of the war in 1914, just before he left to serve.

 

Yes I imagine that he was just a reserve to begin with; in his marriage certificate he lists his occupation as a coal miner, and in my grandfather's birth certificate (just one year later) he lists his job as a marine fireman (or ship stoker). I think he was taking on any job that came his way to survive. 

 

I'll keep an eye out and see if I can find anything else, but it looks like the only surviving record is the attestation, which is a shame indeed.

 

Kind regards,

 

Karl

[kenf48]

Re the Liverpool Museum database it doesn’t like ‘.’ I just searched on Parry John, returns 23 names.

 

Ken

[toast]

5 hours ago, travers61 said:

 

If the 1939 Register dob is correct, this looks like he shaved a couple of years off his age to appear to be 18 or almost 18 when he joined the army in 1903.  

 

He may have had to carry this "military" age on to his marriage certificate (date 1909/10 from 1911 census) as this document may have been produced to the army, if he was on the Army Reserve then.

 

 

 

Ah okay, yes that makes a lot of sense! So his actual age was about 15 years and 7 months when he joined. I wish I noticed this before - I did think it was odd that his marriage certificate was 2 years out. Thanks!

 

25 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

Re the Liverpool Museum database it doesn’t like ‘.’ I just searched on Parry John, returns 23 names.

 

Ken

 

Ah, actually I was pressing the Enter key when I put in the names, rather than pressing the button. Pressing the enter key just gives a blank page. It's working now, thanks!

[toast]

I thought it may be possible to find him by looking for long service medals in 1921 (18 years of service), but getting a lot of records to sift through. How were the long service medals given? (e.g. was there a certain point every year when medals were distributed?) 

 

Edit - I don't suppose it matters anyway, because I wouldn't be able to be sure.

 

Anyway, I went through all of the John and JH Parry's in that list, and managed to rule out 7 of them, so I'm left with 6 (although 2 of which are less likely). The most likely person in the list would be the John Parry with the number 8533, as he was awarded The Military Medal, but still just shooting in the dark here. Perhaps periodicals from the time he was awarded the medal may give me a clue? 

 

Edited 15 January , 2020 by toast

[toast]

I found the entry in the Liverpool Post, but it only states J Parry, the regiment, his number, and that he was injured. There were so many at the time, that I imagine that's all they could really fit in the paper. 

 

I also found his death in the Liverpool Echo paper from 1955, (hoping I may find some mention to his military past) but it only mentioned his family.

 

I think one of my only options is to hope that something comes up on findmypast or ancestry, or if I can go to the Liverpool Museum and perhaps find out more about the John Parry's that are listed in their database.

 

edit: I just spoke to my mum, and she has told me that she remembers seeing her grandfather's medals when she was a child, and that on one of them it said "Bravery in the field". 

Having checked online, I see that the Military Medal had that inscription on the back.

Edited 15 January , 2020 by toast
adding info

[kenf48]

5 hours ago, toast said:

I just spoke to my mum, and she has told me that she remembers seeing her grandfather's medals when she was a child, and that on one of them it said "Bravery in the field". 

 

You can search and eliminate recipients of the M.M. on FMP (there are two J.H. Parry and a number of J.Parry)

 I had a look at the war diary, general rule of thumb the incident for which the award was given was around three months before the Gazette There is a list of recipients on 24 June but he's not on it.  May is missing entirely! I've not looked at the higher level diaries.

 

Ken

[toast]

 

7 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

You can search and eliminate recipients of the M.M. on FMP (there are two J.H. Parry and a number of J.Parry)

 I had a look at the war diary, general rule of thumb the incident for which the award was given was around three months before the Gazette There is a list of recipients on 24 June but he's not on it.  May is missing entirely! I've not looked at the higher level diaries.

 

Ken

Yes, the only one that stands out from those is the service number 8533 J Parry. It says he was 1st Kings Liverpool. There's also one John Parry from the Royal Welsh Fusiliers (My great-grandfather's parents were both from Anglesey and he could speak Welsh, so it's not impossible I guess.)

Where are the war diaries? The one's on the National Archives?

[FROGSMILE]

His cap badge and buttons appear to be black.  It suggests to me that he might have been in the 6th (TF) Battalion King’s (Liverpool) Regiment.

[toast]

26 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

His cap badge and buttons appear to be black.  It suggests to me that he might have been in the 6th (TF) Battalion King’s (Liverpool) Regiment.

Really? If so, then it would really put a damper on the stuff found so far! How does the 6th fit in with WW1? From what I've just read, it seems they lacked the training at the outbreak of the war, but got up to speed by 1916?

[FROGSMILE]

15 minutes ago, toast said:

Really? If so, then it would really put a damper on the stuff found so far! How does the 6th fit in with WW1? From what I've just read, it seems they lacked the training at the outbreak of the war, but got up to speed by 1916?

I don’t know for sure if he was with them as the photo is too indistinct, my comment was really to link the alleged Liverpool connection with what appeared to be black insignia.