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trenchwalker

Military medal - action to gazette

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trenchwalker

I know it’s not anExact science but what people tend to find when it comes from the action to the item being exerted I only ask as I’m currently researching a M winner who was gazetted after the end of the war and I can’t seem to narrow down what action it was

 

gazzette 21/1/19 

mentioned in newspaper 6th February 1919

Edited by trenchwalker

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Coldstreamer

rule thumb 3 months between action and gazette but that gets longer as war progressed.

 

be worth a new post with his details

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Margosh

Interesting question, I have been pondering the same over a late MM award too. I have him gazetted in August 1919, the award mentioned in the war diary April 1919. But I have been unable so far to trace mention in the diary of what or when he did whatever he did!  I know actions mid-late 1918 were in some cases not gazetted until 1919. I was hoping to read back through the Diary and find something that could relate but no luck yet, and I don't know how far back I should go.

(I'm not hijacking your thread - this isn't an urgent query for my current research, just on a back burner but I thought it fitted in).

 

Margaret

 

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Coldstreamer

post some details , in particular the unit to get the regimental experts attention

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Ken Lees

Wasn't that date the Peace Gazette? Hoovering up the backlog of awards?

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kenf48
1 hour ago, Ken Lees said:

Wasn't that date the Peace Gazette? Hoovering up the backlog of awards?

 

I believe it was and the January one would have been the New Years Honours

 

See LLT https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/records-of-gallantry-and-bravery-awards/the-british-gallantry-and-bravery-awards-of-the-great-war/

 

On another thread I posted the attached memo found in a War Diary seeking recommendations for the New Years Honours in the 29th Division - the three month 'rule does not hold as the memo is dated 20th September and is calling for specific recommendations for actions between 25th February and  16/17th September.  There would have been a Divisional quota for these awards

 

Screenshot 2019-12-27 at 15.09.01.pngScreenshot 2019-12-27 at 15.09.28.png

 

Ken

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Coldstreamer

Rule of thumb is a guide not an exact science :)always there are exceptions 

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Margosh

I didn't know about the Peace Gazette (presumably that is the August '19 one?). Mind you, that still sort of fits with the rule of thumb 3 months if it was only shown in the Diary in April so I didn't think the time gap unusual.

 

I am assuming here that MM were awarded for action before 11 November? Although they could have done something brave after I suppose.  I am working from memory as I type this (at work, not home), I think there was reference to the award being authorised by another unit, mentioned on his service record for april '19. I will post more details on my chap in due course - he is not the centre of my current research and if I go down too many paths at the same time, I get lost!

 

Margaret

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David_Underdown

Though early on there was some confusion about what the criteria were going to be MM's had to be "in the face of the enemy".  If that wasn't the case a Meritorious Service Medal was the usual alternative (the warrant being altered to allow this during the war, see my blog post for the centenary of the institution of the MM https://blog.nationalarchives.gov.uk/centenary-military-medal/), so I'd be surprised if the MM were awarded for anything on the Western Front after 11/11/18.

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collectorsguide

The time lapse between the deed and London Gazette entry is a complex subject.Having spent 22 years compiling a roll of recipients of the MM I have also collected many thousands of citations.Using the information from the citations I have produced a profile of each of the London Gazettes which identifies the time span of operations,the operations themselves,the theatres of war etc. 

                            I published a summary of this study in the OMRS Journal (Sept 2015 vol 54 no 3), and in Volume 1 of my GREAT WAR MEDAL COLLECTORS COMPANION (now out of print) Further research using the Schedule numbers and Registered Paper numbers has enabled me in most cases to identify the operation and often the day on which the MM was won.

                               Each gazette covers on average about a month of operations.   A number of Gazettes carry retrospective awards eg the l/Gaz of 11.11.16. has awards for the Somme including 1st July; ,Battles in 1914 and 1915 including Gallipoli and Loos etc; so to apply the 3 month rule to this Gazette would be misleading as it would for other retrospective awards gazettes eg 14.9.16 ;27.10.16. 11.11.16 etc. The 30.1.20.Gazette covers awards made under AO 193 OF 1919 and includes MMs for Mons,Last stands THROUGHOUT THE WAR,escapers etc. You may get lucky with the 3 month rule but generally it can be more misleading than helpful.

                          The 21.1.19. Gazette MM Supplement 24.1.19  covers the period of operations 8.8.18.(Amiens) to 3.9.18.(advance into Picardy) (4 to 5 months time lapse in the same gazette !)

The 13.8.19 gazette is exclusively for ops in North Russia, the 20.8.19 is a complex double gazette.It contains the last major gazette for WW1 awards of the MM AND IN MANY CASES REWARDS GOOD WORK OVER A PERIOD OF TIME,and the end of Schedule numbers.Time span covered from 8.8.18 to 11.11.18.

                                      Apologies to those awaiting individual replies but over Christmas I have been finishing the MM Roll for the Italian campaign 1917/18 for publication soon.I have around 30 enquiries to deal with and will get round to them when time allows.The Italian MM Roll gives either full citations or dates of actions etc for every one of the 1200 entries.

                                            best wishes, Howard

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Margosh

Interesting, thanks both for replies and confirmation that MM was awarded ‘in face of the enemy’, that is certainly more specific than ‘bravery in the field’.  

In my case then I should probably be looking for something between 8/8/18 and 11/11. Which certainly narrows it down a bit. If I don’t come across anything in the Diary I will come back to it and start a new thread. 

 

Margaret

 

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collectorsguide

The soldiers details will enable the date of the award to be narrowed down considerably,especially the MM Schedule number and RP Number. best w, Howard

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brianmorris547
23 hours ago, Margosh said:

Interesting, thanks both for replies and confirmation that MM was awarded ‘in face of the enemy’, that is certainly more specific than ‘bravery in the field’.  

In my case then I should probably be looking for something between 8/8/18 and 11/11. Which certainly narrows it down a bit. If I don’t come across anything in the Diary I will come back to it and start a new thread. 

 

Margaret

 

Margaret

The WD of the 49 Div HQ (Adjutant and Quarter - Master General) has MM citations in the Routine Orders for 1916 under Honours and Rewards so if your man is 2/1 West Riding FC you may find something in the 1918 WD.

Brian

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Margosh
On 17/01/2020 at 20:08, brianmorris547 said:

Margaret

.... so if your man is 2/1 West Riding FC you may find something in the 1918 WD.

Brian

 

Thanks Brian, but it his brother.

 

On 16/01/2020 at 22:32, collectorsguide said:

The soldiers details will enable the date of the award to be narrowed down considerably,especially the MM Schedule number and RP Number. best w, Howard

 

Well, I have gone through the diary and cannot see anything specific which would relate (not the easiest writing to read), although I think I need a different diary - trouble is I don't know exactly which. I am reluctant to take over the OP's thread but I will provide the details I know here. Please tell me if you think I should open a new one.

 

My man (my Gt Uncle) is Eli John Young, 568 ASC Company, 15th Motor Ambulance Convoy, Service No M2/120327. I have his full Service Record, he was an ambulance driver for just a few weeks then a Motor Cyclist.

The MM award is shown in the 15 MAC Diary on 21/2/1919.

His Service Record shows the award authorised by 17 Corps Routine Order no 37 of 19/2/19. I think I need to find the 17th Corps Diary but I don't know which 17th Corps, possibly 17th Corps MTC which is mentioned in the Diary (a car and a cyclist sent for duty with DDMS (?) 17 Corps MTC on 24/8/18 is a possible link I found).  I have searched but not found the appropriate Diary.

The MM was Gazetted on 20/8/1919

The medal was sent to him in November 1919, the receipted card is in his Service Record and has a reference number which means nothing to me (see photo). CR/142356/ML(?)19 and Safe No 8115

My mother said he received the medal for delivering a message under fire. She did know him but may have been told that by her father (his brother) who was RE but they seem to have kept some contact during the war as I have postcards and photos which suggest they may have done so. So my Grandad may have known the details and mum may have been correct. Or not!

 

Thanks

Margaret

 

 

MM card.jpg

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Coldstreamer

if you are going off tangent its always better to start a new thread, saves confusion

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Margosh

I have started a new thread:

 

 

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GMB
On 14/01/2020 at 12:41, Margosh said:

Interesting question, I have been pondering the same over a late MM award too. I have him gazetted in August 1919, the award mentioned in the war diary April 1919. But I have been unable so far to trace mention in the diary of what or when he did whatever he did!  I know actions mid-late 1918 were in some cases not gazetted until 1919. I was hoping to read back through the Diary and find something that could relate but no luck yet, and I don't know how far back I should go.

(I'm not hijacking your thread - this isn't an urgent query for my current research, just on a back burner but I thought it fitted in).

 

Margaret

 

I am in the same boat with my great grandfather (Thomas Conway, 32514). He was awarded the MM & gazetted on 19 Nov 1917. 

 

Having read the Welsh Regiment diaries, the family think he gained this award from the Battle of Menin Road Ridge, Langemarck. Unfortunately I don't think there is any way of either of us knowing what they actually did to gain the award, which is a real shame......

 

 

 

Edited by GMB

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