stevie1944 Posted 9 January , 2020 Share Posted 9 January , 2020 I know the Royal Scots used the Hunting Stewart tartan during the war...was it the ancient or modern? Also, does anyone have the size of the tartan flashes placed behind the cap badges on the tam o shanter and glengarry? Finally, I know the RS used a red felt backing for 1st Bn and green for 2nd Bn. behind the cap badge. I read somewhere that the K1 battalions 10th, 11th, 12th, etc. Used the red backing also. Can anyone confirm this? Thank you! Cheers - Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Abbott Posted 10 January , 2020 Share Posted 10 January , 2020 9 hours ago, stevie1944 said: I know the Royal Scots used the Hunting Stewart tartan during the war...was it the ancient or modern? Also, does anyone have the size of the tartan flashes placed behind the cap badges on the tam o shanter and glengarry? Finally, I know the RS used a red felt backing for 1st Bn and green for 2nd Bn. behind the cap badge. I read somewhere that the K1 battalions 10th, 11th, 12th, etc. Used the red backing also. Can anyone confirm this? Thank you! Cheers - Steve 'modern'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glengarry1950 Posted 17 January , 2020 Share Posted 17 January , 2020 Hi Steve, Not Royal Scots but the same regulations would apply in sizes, Here is a copy of the Sample book for the Regimental Tailor in Savile Row London, the Top Leslie Tartan Patch is for use on the Officers Balmoral and the OR's TOS, the smaller patch is for use on the sleeve of the Battle Dress, note size on the right of the page. Hope this helps Best Hiram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 January , 2020 Share Posted 17 January , 2020 (edited) The adoption of tartan patches as insignia was really a development of trench badges from the 1916 Somme battles onwards, and was inconsistent at first, with only some battalions of a particular regiment adopting the patches, and others not. It was really an evolutionary process and gradually spread between the wars, reaching a heyday during post WW2 National Service as part of a concerted effort to brighten up the drabness of battle dress (the widespread adoption of coloured lanyards was a part of this). The pattern book posted by Hiram relates to the later, WW2 onwards era. “BD” = Battle Dress = 1937 onwards. Edited 18 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1944 Posted 17 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2020 16 minutes ago, Glengarry1950 said: Hi Steve, Not Royal Scots but the same regulations would apply in sizes, Here is a copy of the Sample book for the Regimental Tailor in Savile Row London, the Top Leslie Tartan Patch is for use on the Officers Balmoral and the OR's TOS, the smaller patch is for use on the sleeve of the Battle Dress, note size on the right of the page. Hope this helps Best Hiram Thank you sir! Exactly what I was looking for. The photograph I have of my soldier show's him wearing the TOS with the tartan patch behind it. Much appreciated! - Cheers - Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 January , 2020 Share Posted 17 January , 2020 (edited) Some battalions of the Royal Scots were among those that adopted a tartan patch during WW1, the Dandy 9th (Highland) Battalion being among them. Also the 8th (TF) Pioneer Battalion. Edited 17 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glengarry1950 Posted 17 January , 2020 Share Posted 17 January , 2020 Here are two WW1 TOS's from the KOSB Museum and feature in my book, the first one is the distinctive patch worn by 6th Bn KOSB in WW1 and the Leslie Tartan Circular rather than the norm square, worn by the 4th Bn KOSB. Cheers Hiram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1944 Posted 17 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2020 Hiram, I noticed several original examples had frayed edges. Was this due to normal wear and tear, or was done by the soldier? Also, Some showed examples of the patch "doubled up" was this common also? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glengarry1950 Posted 17 January , 2020 Share Posted 17 January , 2020 Hi Steve, Its just the cut of the Tartan and Khaki clothe in this early period of patches, I would say as there was not stiff backing, which was applied later on, the frayed ends would occurred naturally. Cheers Hiram Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 January , 2020 Share Posted 17 January , 2020 (edited) I’ve posted on this subject several times in the past decade. There is strong circumstantial evidence that it became fashionable for the edges of the patches to be frayed. As suggested above, part of this was due to natural wear, but soldiers love to give an ‘old sweat appearance and it seems very likely that there was a certain amount of deliberate teasing of the edges too. In part this seems to have been in emulation of the very long-standing fashion of fraying the edges of the black silk ‘cockades’ on the glengarry caps that long pre-dated Tam O Shanter bonnets. A key point, I feel, is that during WW1 the wearing of tartan patches was evolutionary and not all battalions of the same regiment followed the same practice, as is exemplified by the KOSB illustrations posted by Hiram above. The survey carried out by the embryo Imperial War Museum towards the end of the war is indicative of who, did what, as indeed are contemporary photographs. Ergo, at that time, one has to look at battalion practice rather than regimental practice, as the two are not necessarily the same. Edited 17 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1944 Posted 17 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 17 January , 2020 1 hour ago, FROGSMILE said: I’ve posted on this subject several times in the past decade. There is strong circumstantial evidence that it became fashionable for the edges of the patches to be frayed. As suggested above, part of this was due to natural wear, but soldiers love to give an ‘old sweat appearance and it seems very likely that there was a certain amount of deliberate teasing of the edges too. In part this seems to have been in emulation of the very long-standing fashion of fraying the edges of the black silk ‘cockades’ on the glengarry caps that long pre-dated Tam O Shanter bonnets. A key point, I feel, is that during WW1 the wearing of tartan patches was evolutionary and not all battalions of the same regiment followed the same practice, as is exemplified by the KOSB illustrations posted by Hiram above. The survey carried out by the embryo Imperial War Museum towards the end of the war is indicative of who, did what, as indeed are contemporary photographs. Ergo, at that time, one has to look at battalion practice rather than regimental practice, as the two are not necessarily the same. Thanks for the insight! My initial thought was they edges were too uniformly frayed to be accidental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 17 January , 2020 Share Posted 17 January , 2020 (edited) 10 hours ago, stevie1944 said: Thanks for the insight! My initial thought was they edges were too uniformly frayed to be accidental. In some cases black cockades were worn as backing to badges on Tam O Shanters and in other cases no backing to the badge was worn at all. In other cases no badges or backing were worn, but just the plain bonnet. The universal practice of today was not the case then. Edited 18 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glengarry1950 Posted 18 January , 2020 Share Posted 18 January , 2020 (edited) 18 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: I’ve posted on this subject several times in the past decade. There is strong circumstantial evidence that it became fashionable for the edges of the patches to be frayed. As suggested above, part of this was due to natural wear, but soldiers love to give an ‘old sweat appearance and it seems very likely that there was a certain amount of deliberate teasing of the edges too. In part this seems to have been in emulation of the very long-standing fashion of fraying the edges of the black silk ‘cockades’ on the glengarry caps that long pre-dated Tam O Shanter bonnets. A key point, I feel, is that during WW1 the wearing of tartan patches was evolutionary and not all battalions of the same regiment followed the same practice, as is exemplified by the KOSB illustrations posted by Hiram above. The survey carried out by the embryo Imperial War Museum towards the end of the war is indicative of who, did what, as indeed are contemporary photographs. Ergo, at that time, one has to look at battalion practice rather than regimental practice, as the two are not necessarily the same. Aye my friend, You are as we expect from an expert, entirely correct, in fact you hit the nail on the head, I can admit to aging my kit as a young soldier to look un-sprog like which was the norm by my pears also. Best Hiram Edited 18 January , 2020 by Glengarry1950 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1944 Posted 18 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 18 January , 2020 18 hours ago, Glengarry1950 said: Thank you gents, you have been most knowledgeable and helpful. Cheers! - Steve Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 20 January , 2020 Share Posted 20 January , 2020 On 17/01/2020 at 17:01, FROGSMILE said: This is very good, I see there is some feint writing but I cannot make it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 20 January , 2020 Share Posted 20 January , 2020 1 minute ago, Neill Gilhooley said: This is very good, I see there is some feint writing but I cannot make it out. I can’t help beyond the first line seeming to say ‘Yours Sincerely’, I’m afraid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 20 January , 2020 Share Posted 20 January , 2020 (edited) Yes, as far as I got! Thank you. Edit - I have a Sneath/Smeath? Guesswork! Edited 20 January , 2020 by Neill Gilhooley Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1944 Posted 28 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 28 January , 2020 On 17/01/2020 at 11:47, stevie1944 said: Thank you sir! Exactly what I was looking for. The photograph I have of my soldier show's him wearing the TOS with the tartan patch behind it. Much appreciated! - Cheers - Steve Was the battle dress patch commonly worn on uniforms? I haven't been able to locate a photo showing it on the tunic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 28 January , 2020 Share Posted 28 January , 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, stevie1944 said: Was the battle dress patch commonly worn on uniforms? I haven't been able to locate a photo showing it on the tunic. Not generally during WW1, no. Also “Battle Dress” was the WW2 uniform rather than WW1. Most forms of unit identification were removed by the time of D-Day, leaving just two-inch wide and half inch thick, coloured arm-of-service strips, to indicate their function. Tartan patches on the uniform were more a peacetime practice, although they were still worn early in the war until after the evacuation from Dunkirk. Edited 28 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1944 Posted 29 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2020 4 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Not generally during WW1, no. Also “Battle Dress” was the WW2 uniform rather than WW1. Most forms of unit identification were removed by the time of D-Day, leaving just two-inch wide and half inch thick, coloured arm-of-service strips, to indicate their function. Tartan patches on the uniform were more a peacetime practice, although they were still worn early in the war until after the evacuation from Dunkirk. Thank you but I was referring to the British tunics worn during WWI, not WWII. I did find this image from 4Bn, Gordon Highlanders, taken in 1918. It appears the soldier has a tartan patch on his right sleeve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Upton Posted 29 January , 2020 Share Posted 29 January , 2020 5 hours ago, stevie1944 said: Thank you but I was referring to the British tunics worn during WWI, not WWII. I did find this image from 4Bn, Gordon Highlanders, taken in 1918. It appears the soldier has a tartan patch on his right sleeve. What Frogsmile was trying to point out is "Battle Dress" doesn't come into use in the British Army until 1937. What was worn during the war was referred to as "Service Dress"... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neill Gilhooley Posted 29 January , 2020 Share Posted 29 January , 2020 5 hours ago, stevie1944 said: 4Bn, Gordon Highlanders, taken in 1918 '1/4th Gordons' Brigade (154) insignia which was made up of 3 pale blue bars' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 January , 2020 Share Posted 29 January , 2020 (edited) 6 hours ago, stevie1944 said: Thank you but I was referring to the British tunics worn during WWI, not WWII. I did find this image from 4Bn, Gordon Highlanders, taken in 1918. It appears the soldier has a tartan patch on his right sleeve. Stevie, I said, ‘not generally’ because very few units wore a tartan patch on SD jackets during WW1, whereas subsequently they became ubiquitous. Instead a system of battle patches utilising coloured felt strips was used along with the rest on the infantry. I do recall that one of the Seaforth’s battalions did wear a tartan patch, but not which one. It was probably either, a TF unit, or a war-raised Service battalion. Regulars were very conservative in their attitudes to uniform. Edited 29 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie1944 Posted 29 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 29 January , 2020 2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: Stevie, I said, ‘not generally’ because very few units wore a tartan patch on SD jackets during WW1, whereas subsequently they became ubiquitous. Instead a system of battle patches utilising coloured felt strips was used along with the rest on the infantry. I do recall that one of the Seaforth’s battalions did wear a tartan patch, but not which one. It was probably either, a TF unit, or a war-raised Service battalion. Regulars were very conservative in their attitudes to uniform. Thank you for the clarification. My apologies for the confusion - I am not up to speed on my British uniform nomenclature Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 29 January , 2020 Share Posted 29 January , 2020 2 minutes ago, stevie1944 said: Thank you for the clarification. My apologies for the confusion - I am not up to speed on my British uniform nomenclature No problem. If you continue to frequent this forum you will soon learn. As with all armies uniforms evolve and the British are no different. Knowing the terms helps to put things in context, especially when dating photographs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now