Rifle Brigade - 212167

[Martin4x4]

I have found my Grandfather Herbert Sullivan’s record in the ‘WW1 Service Medal records 1914-1920’ (see below for extract)

I would like to know where he would have been billeted before he went to India in 1918? Is it likely that he would have been on home leave between 18/9/2018 and 1/10/1918? Or any other relevant information? 

	Theatre of war in which served
Norf.Reg.Pte.1531	(a)	27/07/1916	14/09/1916
Norf.Reg.Pte.242513	(b)	01/03/1917	15/10/1917
Rif Brig.212167	(b)	16/10/1917	18/09/2018
"	India	01/10/1918	25/10/2019
Medals awarded
Victory	5 Aug 1914 to 11 Nov 1918
British	5 Aug 1914 to 11 Nov 1918

[Mark1959]

Welcome
You have slightly misread the record. 
1531 is 1a - that is France and Flanders. The other 2 are 4b - Egypt / Palestine. The gap to India is probably only the sailing time between Egypt and India.

The 1 and 4 are printed on a vertical line and thus hard to decipher.

you have also missed the battalions

1531 6 Norfolks

242523 5 Norfolks

212167 21 RB.

Edited 7 January , 2020 by Mark1959

[PRC]

1 hour ago, Martin4x4 said:

I have found my Grandfather Herbert Sullivan’s record in the ‘WW1 Service Medal records 1914-1920’ (see below for extract)

I would like to know where he would have been billeted before he went to India in 1918? Is it likely that he would have been on home leave between 18/9/2018 and 1/10/1918? Or any other relevant information? 

	Theatre of war in which served
Norf.Reg.Pte.1531	(a)	27/07/1916	14/09/1916
Norf.Reg.Pte.242513	(b)	01/03/1917	15/10/1917
Rif Brig.212167	(b)	16/10/1917	18/09/2018
"	India	01/10/1918	25/10/2019
Medals awarded
Victory	5 Aug 1914 to 11 Nov 1918
British	5 Aug 1914 to 11 Nov 1918

 

1531 would be likely to be a Territorial Force number, and while the Territorial Force Battalions of the Norfolk Regiment didn't go to France, after the introduction of conscription in 1916, some of the men in the Home Service only TF battalions did end up being posted as drafts, although usually from the 1st/6th Battalion. I see this period of service only goes up until the 14th September 1916 so presumably he was repatriated back to the UK at that point, almost certainly on medical grounds - wounds \ accidental injuries or illness.

 

242513 comes from the service number range allocated to the 5th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment, a Territorial Force unit. This range was used to renumber all the existing men serving with that battalion, (including those who were prisoners of war or were officially "missing"), at the start of 1917.

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/a-soldiers-life-1914-1918/renumbering-of-the-territorial-force-in-1917/renumbering-the-tf-infantry-in-1917/

In my experience 242xxx numbered men come from the 3rd/5th Battalion who were pretty much being disbanded at the same time. As well as new trainees that would have included men returned after convalescence and those in the lower medical categories. They tended to end up with either one of the three ex-Territorial Force battalions in Palestine, (1st/4th, 1st/5th and 12th) or the 2nd Battalion in Mesopotamia. As Mark has pointed out, Theatre of War 4(b) by this point was Egypt & Palestine so he may well have endured the slaughter of 2nd Gaza if he actually arrived in theatre on the 1st March 1917.

 

UK leave was pretty much a non-starter for men in Egypt and Palestine at that point, so as Mark suggest, the gap probably relates to his time in transit. I guessing, but as the Egyptian Expeditionary Force ultimately reported to the War Office while the India Garrison came under the India Ofice, the time in transit may have been a bit of a bureaucratic black hole.

 

I'm assuming there is a Norfolk connection - do you know where he would have come from as he may get a mention in the local press.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

 

Edited 7 January , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[Martin4x4]

Wow! Thank you both for the information.

Mark, yes, I did miss the battalion numbers and, what was so very important, the theatre of war numbers.

Peter, for the incredible information about where my grandfather was posted.

I can remember that he had a part of one ear missing, which I was told was as a result of being shot. He may well have had other wounds that I was never aware of. This seems to support your idea that he was repatriated as a result of wounds in September 1916.

Of course, as I had missed the significant theatre of war numbers, it’s clear that he would not have had any home leave.

Your information has finally resolved the question of who was NOT the father of my own father’s unknown brother, (now half brother!) despite what the birth certificate states!

There is a Norfolk connection as prior to his military service Herbert worked in the Norwich shoe industry.

Thank you again.

[PRC]

I've had a quick look through the Eastern Daily Press and the Norwich Mercury for the two months after the 14th September 1916 and checked the transcriptions I've done for the Norfolk Chronicle and can't find a reference specific to a 1531 Herbert Sullivan. However what I did find was a reference to a Private 43358 H. Sullivan, (Norwich) in the Casualty List that appeared in the edition of the Eastern Daily Press dated October 4, 1916. He was serving in the Norfolk Regiment and the entry is in the category "Wounded".

 

 - If your relative went to France he would be serving with either a Service Battalion or a Regular Army Battalion which means he would have probably been issued with a new service number rather than retain 1531.

- Medal Index Cards and Service Medal Rolls should not be seen as covering all the details, particularly if the soldier concerned changed Records Depots. A move from the Norfolk Regiment to the Rifle Brigade would have involved just such a change.

 - He arrived in France on the 27th July 1916. Looking at individuals I've had cause to research, Private Cyril Ross Taylor was service number 2017 in the Ist/6th Battalion, Norfolk Regiment. Posted to France, he landed at Boulogne on the 27th July 1916 and marched into 17 Infantry Base Depot. He was posted from there to the 1st Battalion Norfolk Regiment on the 7th August 1916 and was issued with service number 43373.

 - The only MiC for an H. Sullivan who served with the Norfolk Regiment was for your grandfather.

 - There is no MiC in the National Archive catalogue for a 43358 who served with the Norfolk Regiment. But note not all units have MiCs \ Service Medal Rolls with even the level of detail that is shown for your grandfather. If 43358 H. Suillivan went on to serve with one of those then that could equally explain the absense of a MiC.

 

If your relative did however become service number 43358 then the fact that he is in the official casualty list tells us his wounds were in connection with combat - accidental injuries and illnesses weren't included.

 

Additionally FindMyPast has admission and discharge books for a number of medical facilities - field ambulances, casualty clearing stations and hospitals in France and the UK. While you might not find anything for 1531 Sullivan, it might be worth trying for 43358 Sullivan.

 

Hope that makes sense - if not please ask :-)

 

Peter

 

Edited 8 January , 2020 by PRC
Typo

[George Rayner]

Both FMP and FWR have these numbers

George

Service number	1531, 242513, 212164

[PRC]

2 hours ago, George Rayner said:

Both FMP and FWR have these numbers

George

Service number	1531, 242513, 212164

Thanks for checking George.

 

Not sure that that rules out the possibility of him having been 43358 - will depend on the source used to provide that information.

 

A number of ex1st/6th and 2nd/6th Battalion men would be killed and wounded in the action at Falfemont Farm on the 4th/5th September 1916 - many in the alleged friendly fire incident on the 4th. Total casualties for the two days according to the War Diary were 356, of which the other rank casualties were 50 killed, 212 wounded and 94 missing believed killed. From the 6th to the 16th they were out of the frontline rebuilding, although from the 9th onwards working parties were deployed to the railheads.

 

If he was a casualty with the 1st Battalion from those two days I'm a bit surprised he was still in France until the 14th - I can only speculate that either there were medical complications or as the next phase of the Somme campaign was due to kick off on the 15th the order had come through to clear as many beds as possible.

 

The casualty list on which 43358 H Sullivan appears contains at least 188 names of Norfolk Regiment wounded - (I've just realised I probably haven't got the last half of the "W's"). While there is no guarantee they all came from one battalion it has to be a strong possiblity.

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

[George Rayner]

No me neither. I posted that as the anomaly is the last digit third service number.

OP has 212167 this list from FMP has 212164

 

George

[Martin4x4]

Many thanks again for all this highly detailed information. You are ALL such incredible sources for a war that finished so long ago.

 

I have made a similar mistake with the last digit of the service number, as on the hand written Medal Rolls Index Card the last digit might be read as 7 or 4! I at first read it as 4.

[Martin4x4]

Thanks again for all the information.

 

I've joined findmypast and looked for the casualty records. However, there does not seem to be any that go back as far as July/August/September 1916, or any that seem to go befor 2017 at all.