Royal Marine LI ranks - inverted stripes?

[BabaAndrew]

I would be most grateful if anyone can shed light on the meaning of the inverted stripes in these photos.  Both are of gents in Royal Marine Light Infantry during WW1.  I assume that they are rank insignia, but am struggling to confirm this.  I have only found reference to 3 inverted stripes as being for a Provost or Cook Sergeant; this might be helpful for the one with 3 stripes, but not for the one with 5 stripes.

 

 

Any insights appreciated!

 

[alf mcm]

This page from 'The Long Long Trail' explains all. https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/tips-for-interpreting-photographs-of-men-in-uniform/whats-that-on-his-sleeve-an-overseas-service-chevron/

 

Regards,

 

Alf McM

[Terry_Reeves]

They were for good conduct not overseas service.

 

TR

[horatio2]

Too big for overseas service chevrons, which were red and blue.

These are RMLI/RMA Good Conduct Badges. Under KR & AI (1913), Chapter XXXIV, Section XI, Article 1187, these were awarded after 2, 6, 12, 18, 23 and 28 years (i.e. up to six chevrons)

Edited 5 January , 2020 by horatio2

[Ron Clifton]

Overseas service chevrons were worn on the lower right sleeve, and were smaller than good conduct badges or rank stripes.

 

Ron

[BabaAndrew]

Thank you for the replies!  LSGC stripes makes sense.  I am just wondering where rank then appears, unless these gents are both Privates with long service?

[FROGSMILE]

4 hours ago, BabaAndrew said:

Thank you for the replies!  LSGC stripes makes sense.  I am just wondering where rank then appears, unless these gents are both Privates with long service?

Rank goes on the right arm. Both men seem likely to be private’s.  Generally (from 1881 in the Army) men holding the first level of substantive rank and upwards did not wear GC badges as possessing NCO rank assumed good conduct.

 

Edited 5 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

16 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said:

Rank goes on the right arm. Both men seem likely to be private’s.  Generally men holding the first level of substantive rank and upwards did not wear GC badges as possessing NCO rank assumes good conduct.

 

Now I am sorry to hi-jack the thread, but I have to ask, 4 Chevrons and crown denotes what rank in the RMLI? I familiar with the ASM in the VF/TF but not in the RMLI. 

 

Thanks in advance,

[FROGSMILE]

7 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

 

Now I am sorry to hi-jack the thread, but I have to ask, 4 Chevrons and crown denotes what rank in the RMLI? I familiar with the ASM in the VF/TF but not in the RMLI. 

 

Thanks in advance,

 
It’s a good question.  Prior to 1882 it had been ‘THE’ sergeant major’s badge, which changed to the plain crown. After 1899 those RM specialist SNCOs (‘First Sergeants’) with 4-inverted stripes and skill at arms badges (which included small crowns) became retitled as ‘Quartermaster Sergeant instructors’. The man above does not have the skill at arms badge, but is clearly below sergeant major, as he does not wear the bullion cap badge on his forage cap (a badge previously worn by all the senior specialists just like in the Army) of the man sat adjacent wearing a Sam Browne.  Presumably he might be a Barracks QMS, but I am unsure.  Whatever his role was, he was generically a ‘staff sergeant’, as were all QMS.
 

In general I feel that there had long been a slight friction between the RM and RN in the sense that the former had traditionally worn the badges of a land service, partly perhaps because they often joined the army on land as part of an amphibious force and partly because even during the interval when the corps of marines was disestablished, the army regiments of the line took it in turn to serve on board ships of the line as marines (pretty much all of the current infantry regiments had forebears that did so), and so army style rank had been a continuous thread.  However, by the turn of 20thC the re-formed corps of marines had been continuously embedded as part of larger ships establishments for many decades and were very much seen as part of the navy, yet their badges, e.g. gunnery, were those of the land service, despite that they were starting to form the crews of some turrets. That meant that men doing the exact same job on board a RN capital ship, one a marine and the other a rating might wear different badges.  It was decided then, in 1905, to change some of the RM badges to be the same as those of ratings.  Most specifically, gun badges became naval ordnance and physical training NCOs adopted crossed Indian clubs, as worn by their RN rating equivalents.  The relevance I feel is that this gradually led to some slightly greater degree of divergence between badges of the RM and badges of the Army. By 1949 this divergence was so great that at the upper ranks below commissioned officer there was a great deal of confusion between RN/RM and Army and RAF.

Edited 5 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Muerrisch]

In the 1860s there are several recorded instances of the Army and the Admiralty agreeing that the RM were to wear Army style ranking and other badges. The RACD ledgers at Kew record this c. 1868.

This economy of scale did not last.

 

The army also described LS&GC badges [misnomer] as Good Conduct Badges, and for the same periods, although 18 and 23 could be brought forward by two years each.

 

I wonder if four chevrons and crown meant Acting RSM, a colour or staff sergeant thus appointed,

exactly the same as in the TF ........... assuming that the RM had a Reserve

 

 

[Muerrisch]

[FROGSMILE]

The Royal Marines rank and appointment badges for those SNCOs positioned between Colour Sergeant and Sergeant Major are not that well articulated in the various research documents that are available, despite the good detail given for most other positions and roles.  See:  https://rmhistorical.com/paper

 

I can find no reference to an acting sergeant major and so have ruled that out.  The answer I think lies in the changes made in 1899 that I mentioned above, when staff sergeants in instructor positions had their title changed from First Sergeant, to Quartermaster Sergeant Instructor.  We know that there were five of these instructor positions; 'infantry' (essentially drill instructors), 'gunnery', 'musketry', 'gymnasia', and 'swimming'.  The middle three so listed had regulated, specialist badges, that incorporated a medium sized crown worn above 4 inverted stripes below the elbow, and the first and last mentioned did not have specialist badges, but probably did have a medium sized crown above their 4 inverted stripes.  In addition to these five QMS Instructors, there were also QMS in the position of deputies to the commissioned Quartermaster and Barrackmaster, and these too seem to have had no special badge, but appear to have worn 4 inverted stripes, probably with a medium crown over.  This would have ensured coherence and consistency across the range of RM QMS positions.  Finally, there was the Royal Marines staff clerk, who rather confusingly when compared with the Army, wore 4 inverted stripes with an 8-pointed star over*.

 

With the above explanation in mind, I think then that, given the inscription "Instructors" at the base of the photograph that I posted above, that the figure with 4 inverted stripes and crown above is most likely either, a QMS infantry instructor, or a QMS swimming instructor.  As there were significantly fewer of the latter, the former position seems to me to be the best fit.

 

*perhaps better known as the then Army badge for the QMS deputy to the Quartermaster in infantry battalions.

Edited 6 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE

[Toby Brayley]

Thank you. Apologies for opening a can of worms but it did strike me as unusual!

 

Regards

Toby

[FROGSMILE]

5 hours ago, Toby Brayley said:

Thank you. Apologies for opening a can of worms but it did strike me as unusual!

 

Regards

Toby

Unusual is an apt description!  It was an interesting exercise in deduction because it exemplifies the differences from the Army that sea service engendered within the then corps of Royal Marines’, artillery and light infantry branches.

Edited 6 January , 2020 by FROGSMILE