HUBERT ELLIS HOPKINS Pte Z/6169

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi

I am trying to research my granddad's younger brother Hubert who originally joined the 18th bn KRRC IN 1915 underage (born 14.3.1899). He signed up under granddad's name Alfred Hopkins but got 'rumbled' and got sent home in October 1915. He then enlisted in the The Royal Navy Division on the 13.6.17. I have a picture taken from the Ripley & Heanor newspaper dated 17th January 1919 stating that his ship was torpedoed, sank within 4 minutes and that he was picked up by a patrol boat. I am confused as the date of the paper was after the end of the war and no mention of the ship's name was given. I am a novice  regarding research! Is there anyone who can shed any light on this ship etc. Hubert survived the war.

Thanks

Denise

 

[seaJane]

Hi Denise,

 

Great that you gave his date of birth and number as it enabled me to identify his naval service record - https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D7669051

 

You can download this for £3.50, look in FMP or Ancestry if you subscribe, or look at it in your local library - in any case it should note which ship he was borne on at the date of the torpedoing.

 

Hope that helps.

 

sJ

[Coldstreamer]

 

His papers say SUVA ?

Edited 4 January , 2020 by Coldstreamer

[Coldstreamer]

if it is SUVA the log for Jan 19 seem to be missing 

[Coldstreamer]

The Navy is def not my area of expertise

 

courtesy of FMP

 

 

 

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi

I have just managed to download the same info above. Pembroke 1 is land based as in training so i'm not sure what this is all about. According to Wikipedia the Suva survived WW1 so that ship was not sunk. Is there anyone out there can help deciphering Hubert's service record?

Thanks

Denise

[horatio2]

1 hour ago, Denise Hopkins said:

He then enlisted in the The Royal Navy Division on the 13.6.17.

He never served in the Royal Naval Division. He was an RNVR seaman on sea service.

He served in HMS SUVA  from 28 Nov 1917 to 31 May 1919, based at Suez. The rest of his war was spent in baracks at Crystal Palace (HMS VICTORY VI) or at Chatham (HMS PEMBROKE). Whatever the torpedoed ship he may have been on, it was not SUVA. SUVA was a boarding steamer so perhaps it was one of the ships she boarded for examination.

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi thanks for this information. So do you know if he received a service medal or not? 

[horatio2]

An afterthought. Who was torpedoing ships in January 1919 - after the end of the war? Perhaps this refers to an earlier incident involving SUVA.

 

His correct Official Number was Bristol Z/6169 (BZ/6169). 

[horatio2]

The RNVR medal roll shows that he personally claimed the British War Medal and the Victory Medal from the Admiralty after the war.

[Denise Hopkins]

Thanks for this info. I'm on a site that has the log for the Suva so trawling through it on the off chance that I find something! Very interesting - loading sheep to other ships, delivering officers / service men and prisoners (Turkish ) to other ships etc

[horatio2]

He was in SUVA at an interesting time. She was involved in many of the activities in the Red Sea in connection with the Arab Uprising - Lawrence of Arabia et al.

[seaJane]

There are four brief mentions of SUVA in Lawrence's The Seven Pillars of Wisdom, but they give no idea what may have happened to Hubert (although I haven't investigated to see if there are any references to the ships which don't include their names).

[Denise Hopkins]

Could there have been a misprint in the paper and instead of being the boat's first journey it should have referred to Hubert's first journey? After all they have his name as Herbert instead of Hubert! Could it have been when he was he was being transported to the Suez in Nov 1917 but the paper has decided to print it after talking to his parents? How come he is in Pembroke (Chatam Naval Base) the day before being in the Suez on the 28th Nov 1917. Would some of his training at Chatham have been on board a ship which might have been torpedoed (although I can't find anything that fits in with his time there)? A mystery!!!

[horatio2]

5 minutes ago, Denise Hopkins said:

How come he is in Pembroke (Chatam Naval Base) the day before being in the Suez on the 28th Nov 1917.

He may not have been physically "in Pembroke". The record shows where he was borne for pay. Thus, he was 'on the books' of PEMBROKE at Chatham until 27 Nov 1917. After that he was 'on the books' of SUVA. It is probable that he remained on the books of PEMBROKE while he was taking passage to join SUVA at Suez. We cannot know how he travelled to Suez. He was then a member of her ship's company (List 5 RNVR) from 28 Nov 1917.

 

17 minutes ago, Denise Hopkins said:

After all they have his name as Herbert instead of Hubert!

Where does Herbert come from? He is clearly Hubert in ADM 337 and ADM 171 (medal roll) records. His original RNVR enrolment papers are in the archive of the Fleet Air Arm Museum (National Museum of the Royal Navy). They will reveal his signature and stated names. NMRN are, unhelpfully, not accepting service record enquiries at present but perhaps worth checking in a few months time.

 

24 minutes ago, Denise Hopkins said:

Could there have been a misprint in the paper and instead of being the boat's first journey it should have referred to Hubert's first journey?

Newspaper reports are rarely 100% reliable.

 

26 minutes ago, Denise Hopkins said:

Could it have been when he was he was being transported to the Suez in Nov 1917 but the paper has decided to print it after talking to his parents?

Possible but speculation in the absence of hard evidence.

[MerchantOldSalt]

A H Hopkins Ordinary Seaman, Chatham appears on the Nominal Roll of Naval Ratings embarked on HM Fleet Messenger (61) OSMANIEH which was sunk by mine off Alexandria on 31 Dec 1917.

He is listed under the section of men who embarked 9 Dec 1917 for Italy, Malta and Alexandria ex Train AMT 15 at Southampton

 

I believe the OSMANIEH left Southampton on 17 Dec 1917 for Malta and was at Taranto 28 Dec 1917, before arriving off Alexandria 31 Dec 1917.

 

This may very well be your man, seems a bit of a co-incidence if he isn't but Horatio 2 will confirm or not!

 

Tony

Edited 5 January , 2020 by MerchantOldSalt

[58 Div Mule]

I have an interest in an RMLI Sergeant who served aboard HMS Suva.

 

Volume 8 Number 1, April 2009 of the International Journal of Naval History (available online) gives an interesting account of Suva's activities during WW1.

 

Written by Dr Gregory P Gilbert of the RAN Sea Power Centre, Canberra.

 

Briefly :-

 

Bombarded seven Turkish garrison towns.

Landed parties to occupy three towns.

Transported troops on nine occasions.

Conducted patrols stopping dhows.

Survived two groundings and two fires.

 

 

It would appear that T E Lawrence was aboard on at least one occasion during early November 1916.

 

58 DM.

 

[horatio2]

15 minutes ago, 58 Div Mule said:

Volume 8 Number 1, April 2009 of the International Journal of Naval History (available online) gives an interesting account of Suva's activities during WW1.

That is a very interesting and useful article. Thank you for posting. Linnk here:-  http://www.ijnhonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Article-Gilbert.pdf

[horatio2]

28 minutes ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

This may very well be your man, seems a bit of a co-incidence if he isn't but Horatio 2 will confirm or not!

It would be nice to confirm. A pity we have no forenames or number for the Hopkins rating in HMS OSMANIEH. Are they recorded? For now AH Hopkins does not match HE Hopkins. However, given the admin errors in any system he remains a possibility.

If so, he would have been in UK but 'on the books' of HMS SUVA for three weeks (28 Nov to 17 Dec) before emabarking in OSMANIEH. Perhaps unlikely? I would expect the earliest 'admin move' to SUVA to be on the date of embarkation, not three weeks earlier.

By 1 Dec 1917 SUVA had left Suez and was operating thereafter down in the Red Sea as far south as Aden during January 1918. It means it would have been perhaps mid-January (survivor to Alexandria, overland to Suez, passage south to SUVA) before he could join SUVA. Her log offers no clues.

As I say, a posibility. However, my gut feeling is that the time lines are running about a month late. Could be wrong.

[MerchantOldSalt]

Sorry H2 my poor grammar maybe, the only initial is H, the "A" was as in A possibility of Hopkins', there are no Service numbers or forenames on the "passenger" list only those of the casualties are recorded with that detail in other parts of the file.

Most of the other RN Ratings on the Roll have their ships or bases to which they were in transit recorded after their names, Hopkins only has Port Division Chatham, as you can see, so he was not considered on SUVA's books at that time, if it is the correct Hopkins.

As the first Period of Service entry on his Record for SUVA is incomplete, might not the date of 28 Nov 1917 against SUVA be incorrect?

As the SUVA was not sunk and the only ship in which he served, the loss of the OSMANIEH would certainly explain the newspaper report of Hopkins being involved in a sinking, however without more detail it remains an interesting co-incidence of course.

 

Tony

[horatio2]

Tony,

Thank you for posting the passenger list. I have tried to research the other Chatham Port Division ratings but can only trace "T WREN", who turns out to be Ord Sea James WREN, J.77812, who was a casualty of the sinking. The other three names - "L BURROW", "F BANBER" and "C NEVAS" -  I cannot find anywhere in RN, RNR or RNVR lists - even trying some variations of surname.

 

1 hour ago, MerchantOldSalt said:

Hopkins only has Port Division Chatham, as you can see, so he was not considered on SUVA's books at that time

Not so. A rating's Port Division was a permanent fixture (it could be changed to Chatham, Devonport or Portsmouth), irrespective of where he as serving or on whose books he was held. 

[Denise Hopkins]

Hi

Looks like everyone has been busy! Herbert was a miss print in the newspaper 17th January 1919 ; Ripley and Heanor News. i'm just going to decipher all your hard work.

Thank-you

Denise

[MerchantOldSalt]

2 hours ago, horatio2 said:

Thank you for posting the passenger list. I have tried to research the other Chatham Port Division ratings but can only trace "T WREN", who turns out to be Ord Sea James WREN, J.77812, who was a casualty of the sinking. The other three names - "L BURROW", "F BANBER" and "C NEVAS" -  I cannot find anywhere in RN, RNR or RNVR lists - even trying some variations of surname.

H2

James Wren is correctly identified in several documents in the ADM file concerning casualties, the "unknown" Chatham survivors are not mentioned anywhere else amongst the 14 or so pages of Naval Personnel in the Nominal Roll, passenger list, the Minute which accompanied the lists, attached, says "the lists have been carefully checked with the originals", in light of your difficulty in finding any record of the other 3 Chatham men it would appear that they possibly weren't checked quite carefully enough!

Makes my supposition concerning  H Hopkins' presence more tenuous, pity, but I still think it might be him, mention of a ship sinking in 4 minutes, a much used length of time by several witnesses in the subsequent enquiry and in the newspaper is also interesting

Tony

 

 

 

 

[Denise Hopkins]

Is it possible that Hubert was on either HMS Aragon or HMS Attack that that sunk the day before Osmanieh : both were in the same area? 

[horatio2]

Another possibiity.