Help please regarding a family mystery.

[GeriCourtney]

helpjpl Thank you for your explanation! I thought I was missing something as clearly whoever has compiled this tree has his information wrong and has attached the incorrect person. I have now seen it on Ancestry and wonder how this hasn't been spotted before and communicated to him by someone who is linked to his family.

 

Piers  A very succinct analysis of the situation in Russia, Parliament and what to do with the detainees. It is very hard to understand why the authorities thought in April, with the mayhem going on in Russia, that now was a good time to send them back!  Will we ever know? 

 

I have been looking at the background to the family and, particularly, Rose. This is always a fraught area as records back in Latvia and Lithuania, especially after annexation by Russia, are missing, incomplete, or translation becomes a problem if you do find them. They are frequently in Russian Cyrillic, or a mixture of Russian and the native language, and the differences in major things like the names becomes very complicated. My Polish forebears had their given names and surnames altered so many times by whichever country was in occupation that at one point my great grandfather had five different surnames and a multitude of given names. I have discovered that although Rose's father was born in Poland, her mother was born in England but German by ancestry.  Her parents were married in England and in Hull in particular. This leads me to the MP in Parliament posing questions about the constituent married to a Russian, English by birth herself, not heard from her husband since October 1919 and wanting to know what was happening with the detainees. Lieutenant Commander Kenworthy I have confirmed was the MP for Hull. Given that Rose had had a baby just one day before her husband's projected deportation to Odessa, how conceivable is it that Rose left Salford with her toddler and her baby for her mother in Hull. Out of 11 spies how many were married to an English person who happened to have been born in Hull and had possibly returned there, and is it at all possible that the Russian in question was James? Would this explain the reason why he disappeared and was never heard of again. I have no certainty about this conjecture and no way to prove or disprove a theory. And what direction to take next? On the face of it James it seems did have Communist beliefs, but is being a spy - even given the anomalies and mysteries in his story - stretching the bounds of probability?

[helpjpl]

 

I've seen nothing to indicate that James was thought to be a spy by the British authorities. 

 

The eighty men in custody in the UK prior to deportation in May/June 1919 were held either as sympathisers with the Bolshevik Government or as offenders against the laws of this country (Hansard). At this time, the Bolshevik sympathisers were an organised group operating in this country and it was their 'job' to promote civil unrest here.

 

Those interned by the British for activities as secret service agents appear to be the Russian officers arrested at Newmarket Camp later that year.

 

charlie962 has provided you with some excellent leads. Hopefully, when you visit Kew, these leads will provide more answers and you may find out what steps the British authorities took, if any, to ensure that the deportees were given safe passage to Bolshevik held territory after they were landed at Novorssisk on 06 September 1919.

 

JP

[Guest]

   I think this topic may be worth a Freedom of Information request to TNA and  FCO.  Materials are likely to be  on 100 year closure. I hope a few colleagues have the Chris Andrew history of our Intelligence to hand (It was remaindered and I know you lot cannot resist a bargain)

 

2 completely random suggestions:

 

1)  His "one journey" passport  gives no clue as to what it was- a British passport?(unlikely), a Nansen passport (or equivalent)?  It may be that he was also a stateless person.

 

2) The timing of the pension application,I suggest, is likely to be after the passage of time for him to be officially declared dead. If so,by who and where?

[GeriCourtney]

Piers, I think that the significant thing about the Hansard report is the fact that the authorities believed the men they had detained were spies. Interesting as I wonder what their next move was on this. Presumably they didn't need to prove anything, but the 'accused' would have to prove they were NOT spies. A bit of an unequal task. Thank you for looking at the Chanak Consular Cemetery. Clearly you know your way around the records!! If Chanak came under the jurisdiction of the British Army I would expect to be able to find the record of a deceased detainee, but if they weren't in charge then I wonder if such a thing would be noted, particularly if the detainees were considered to by their original nationality, Russian. James should have applied.

 

Peter, I take your point about the slash maybe making a difference to a number, although we may yet find there exists such a battery/battalion in the British Army. I am beginning to think nothing is impossible. Thank you for the information on the various methods of log-keeping employed by the Army.

[Guest]

Charlie-  We British dislike using unpleasant names for unpleasant matters- in diplomacy, the British tend to use unpleasant French words isntead-or just use a slightly less nasty term.  The National Archives throws up some more  interesting possibilities if the word "repatriation" is used. instead of deportation. For instnce (the last one is in BL):

 

Catalogue description

Repatriation: Russians and Poles to Russian Black Sea ports.

Ordering and viewing options

This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.

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·         Order in advance Request a copy

Reference:	FO 608/203/25
Description:	Repatriation: Russians and Poles to Russian Black Sea ports.
Date:	1919
Held by:	The National Archives, Kew
Former reference in its original department:	609/1/1
Legal status:	Public Record(s)
Closure status:	Open Document, Open Description

 

 

Repatriation - Russia Vol.19.

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This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.

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·         Order in advance Request a copy

Reference:	FO 211/536
Description:	Repatriation - Russia Vol.19.
Note:	1 vol.
Date:	1920
Held by:	The National Archives, Kew
Legal status:	Public Record(s)
Closure status:	Open Document, Open Description

 

Catalogue descriptionBritish delegation, correspondence and papers relating to Russia (Political): Prisoners...

Ordering and viewing options

This record has not been digitised and cannot be downloaded.

You can order records in advance to be ready for you when you visit Kew. You will need a reader's ticket to do this. Or, you can request a quotation for a copy to be sent to you.

·         Order in advance Request a copy

Reference:	FO 608/203
Description:	British delegation, correspondence and papers relating to Russia (Political): Prisoners of war; Political parties; Proclamations; Persia; Parliamentary questions; Poland; Passports; Propaganda; Repatriation; and Relief.
Date:	1919
Held by:	The National Archives, Kew
Former reference in its original department:	Files 608/2/5 - 609/2/1
Legal status:	Public Record(s)

 

 

 

Catalogue description

 

P 2688/1919 Russia: repatriation of Bolsheviks from India

This record is held by British Library: Asian and African Studies

·          

Title:	P 2688/1919 Russia: repatriation of Bolsheviks from India
Date:	30 Nov 1918-14 Sep 1922
Held by:	British Library: Asian and African Studies, not available at The National Archives
Language:	English

 

[GeriCourtney]

I seem to have lost something I was about to email so this may be partially repeated! Thank you all for your latest posts. Charlie thank you for all the references, leads for which I shall plan to explore as they seem very relevant to this puzzle and will hope to see the paperwork at Kew.  The Inspector I don't disagree about James and spying, just merely conjecture as I said, but there IS something distinctly odd about the entire story and his permanent disappearance. And there were a number of obvious coincidences and he had been identified in the Deportation Register as a Bolshevist. Why though were the British even thinking about sending prisoners back to Russia in April as the Revolution was already kicking off and the country was chaotic? GUEST, I had given the hundred year rule some thought but wondered if anything particularly sensitive was held for longer, if not forever? I have requested this successfully before but the circumstances were not quite as complex as this one, although it did include Communism. I also wondered about the one journey passport and will look up what a Nansen passport is as this is a new topic for me! This is the first time I have ever researched anything like this and am still trying to familiarise myself with both the topic, the terminology and history. Studying the agrarian and economic revolutions was tame by comparison to this! The WFA Pension Card is another area that presents more questions than answers. I shall plough on. thanks for your latest list as this makes me realise how much reading there is to do!

[The Inspector]

Hi Geri and all,

Regarding searching for other family members, it often throws up relations that are not known to the OP. Is the other info. about Rose correct or don't you know? When we do find incorrect info. then , as you can see, other Forum members soon shed the light and we can then discount an individual etc. I suspect the tree on Ancestry does have  a lot of correct info.

Was Rose's mother Esther Honigbaum b.2.4.1865, Kingston upon Hull, Yorkshire?

Regards Barry

PS Re your last post, I have not made reference to spying, these queries do tend to get rather involved though BUT keep at it we will.

Edited 6 January , 2020 by The Inspector

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

7 hours ago, pierssc said:

These deported Russian citizens were being sent to Odessa in the Crimea (then in Russia)

Odessa was part of Ukraine in 1919, not Crimea.

I don't think it's ever been classified as part of Crimea which lies some 300km to the east.

But it's complicated.

 

(Crimea itself before 1917 was part of the Russian Empire. After 1921 it became part of the Russian SFSR until 1954 when it was 'given'  to the Ukraine SSR.

It is now part of the Russian Federation).

 

Prior to 1917 Ukraine  was also part of the Russian Empire, then becoming an independent people's republic of Ukraine.

 

From 1917 up until the Ukraine SSR became a founder member of the USSR in 1922, it was even more complicated.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#19th_century,_World_War_I_and_revolution

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#/media/File:Ukraine-growth.png

[GeriCourtney]

55 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Geri and all,

Regarding searching for other family members, it often throws up relations that are not known to the OP. Is the other info. about Rose correct or don't you know? When we do find incorrect info. then , as you can see, other Forum members soon shed the light and we can then discount an individual etc. I suspect the tree on Ancestry does have  a lot of correct info.

Was Rose's mother Esther Honigbaum b.2.4.1865, Kingston upon Hull, Yorkshire?

Regards Barry

PS Re your last post, I have not made reference to spying, these queries do tend to get rather involved though BUT keep at it we will.

 

[The Inspector]

Hi Geri,

Your post seems to have got lost again.

Barry

[GeriCourtney]

56 minutes ago, The Inspector said:

Hi Geri and all,

Regarding searching for other family members, it often throws up relations that are not known to the OP. Is the other info. about Rose correct or don't you know? When we do find incorrect info. then , as you can see, other Forum members soon shed the light and we can then discount an individual etc. I suspect the tree on Ancestry does have  a lot of correct info.

Was Rose's mother Esther Honigbaum b.2.4.1865, Kingston upon Hull, Yorkshire?

Regards Barry

PS Re your last post, I have not made reference to spying, these queries do tend to get rather involved though BUT keep at it we will.

My apologies Barry, I responded to the wrong person due, I suspect, to insomnia till 4 am. It was the hat!! Yes, the information concerning Jacob is completely wrong as he is not a member of this family, at least. The information concerning Rose is fine as is the limited amount on Morris. 

 

Yes, Esther was her mother and the facts as stated are correct. Morris, Rose's father, went to the Transvaal where he died in 1910 aged just 47 years. I hadn't realised this when I mentioned Rose possibly returning to her mother when James disappeared, but they were obviously two women on their own by that time in 1919/20. Why Morris went to the Transvaal I have no idea but his wife was mentioned in his Death Notice, presumably because they were still married at that time. I have found a copy of the HOnigbaum family living in Sculcoates in 1881, but do not khow to download it onto this forum as there is nothing I recognise from the symbols on this response form. But, in any case, I assume that would be 'off topic'.

[GeriCourtney]

Barry - hope you have it now.

[The Inspector]

Hi Geri

Thanks. I have been doing a lot of digging on the Honigbaum family. Which one was your great great g/mother. Miriam, Florence or Rachel and then I'll take it from there. There is a lot more out there in cyberspace than you think!

Regards Barry

[pierssc]

41 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

Odessa was part of Ukraine in 1919, not Crimea.

I don't think it's ever been classified as part of Crimea which lies some 300km to the east.

But it's complicated.

 

 

Dai Bach, you're absolutely right and my hazy sense of geography stands revealed!

 

Just shows one should check EVERYTHING!

[GeriCourtney]

Barry,

 

Thank you for this suggestion. Unfortunately my connection to James is through his mother, Sarah Strauss, as Sarah and my great grandmother, Dina, were sisters. I am on the other side of his family, not the Strauss side. One of the Strauss cousins of my mother is how I became involved in this in the first place. He wanted to know more about his grandfather, James, and his disappearance, and also the WFA Pension Card that seemed to connect James to the military, although the latter is obviously not correct. I can send you the 1881 Census for the Honigbaum family if it helps, but you may have access to it already. I knew very little about the Strauss family though my grandmother, Dina's daughter, and my mother used to go and visit Sarah Strauss. Of their history I knew nothing and I am fairly certain my grandmother and mother knew nothing of the intrigue surrounding James. I am certain one of them would have mentioned it! Interesting family!

 

[charlie962]

1)  His "one journey" passport  gives no clue as to what it was- a British passport?(unlikely), a Nansen passport (or equivalent)?  It may be that he was also a stateless person.

 

On 06/01/2020 at 15:53, GeriCourtney said:

 I also wondered about the one journey passport and will look up what a Nansen passport is as this is a new topic for me! 

Just a word of caution. The index card that I posted for one-time passport for J Straus does not mean it has anything to do with your James Strauss, and indeed probably doesn't. However due to the huge uncertainties in this search, all possible leads need to be checked out before discounting.

 

Some good files pointed out by GUEST. There's an awful lot of reading to do; I hope the backing files still exist and that they have not been too heavily weeded.

 

Charlie

[Guest]

3 hours ago, The Inspector said:

Was Rose's mother Esther Honigbaum b.2.4.1865, Kingston upon Hull, Yorkshire?

 

   This would explain the House of Commons interest by Commander Kenworthy, as MP for Hull- the old convention that an MP can only ask on specific matters and persons of his own constituency-rather than tread on the toes of another MP's ground.

 

(Alas, no archives for Kenworthy, later Viscount Strabolgi, located)

Edited 6 January , 2020 by Guest

[charlie962]

(Alas, no archives for Kenworthy, later Viscount Strabolgi, located)

But his name does come up in some of those FO files, noted PQ (Parliamentary Questions)- I think I posted a card extract earlier?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, charlie962 said:

But his name does come up in some of those FO files, noted PQ (Parliamentary Questions)- I think I posted a card extract earlier?

Exactly so-  but the convention applies. Ergo, another poss. source is Hull newspapers of that exact time.

[johnboy]

Was there a legal difference between Repatriation and deportation?

[charlie962]

10 hours ago, pierssc said:

 This is just speculation on my part, of course

great scenario and all too plausible. So much going on and nobody really understands; reminds me of that excellent Coen Bros film 'Burn After Reading'.

 

Charlie

[The Inspector]

Hi Geri and all

Looking at Dina Strauss. Was she born 21.1.1863,Marburg, Hessen, Germany, married Moses Julius Moritz Lieberg 23.5.1883, father Meier mother Pauline? Who was your great grandmother, her name will do for starters.

Regards Barry

[charlie962]

Just to complicate matters, James's brother Harry, a year younger, joined the RAF (service number 131718) on 23/1/18. Svc record on Findmypast here

 

So why did he serve (only UK service) and not his brother??

 

 

Edited 6 January , 2020 by charlie962

[RaySearching]

Just to recap

 

We have one James Strauss who was deported in 1919 as an undesirable Bolshevist alien, believed to have perished sometime between 1919 and 1926, who is known not to have served in the Great War

 

As JP wrote post 77

The eighty men in custody in the UK prior to deportation in May/June 1919 were held either as sympathisers with the Bolshevik Government or as offenders against the laws of this country (Hansard). At this time, the Bolshevik sympathisers were an organised group operating in this country and it was their 'job' to promote civil unrest here.

 

Whilst James Strauss would not normally be of interest to the Great war forum

His widow Rose’s name appears on a WFA pension record which was generated between 1925-1926

 

post 78

2) The timing of the pension application, I suggest, is likely to be after the passage of time for him to be officially declared dead. If so, by who and where?

 

Which raises the questions why was the pension document generated in the first place, by whom and where did the following information  Internment Camp 183 Batt B.E.F Chanak on the card originate from

 

None of these questions have yet been successfully answered

Ray

 

[The Inspector]

Hi Charlie and all

Thanks for the PM re Ancestry 1911 Abraham STEAUSS, looking through the family Louis was born 15.7.1861, son Harry 1.1.1894. (1939 register @ 46 Gt.Ducie St, Manchester.) Daughter Evelyn b. 28.7. 1905 shown as married to Conn/Cohen. she married Bernard Cohen  Manchester  3rd qtr 1942 8d,631..

1929  records show Louis and Son (single ? Harry )at No.46. Electrical Engineers

 Daughter Freda on 1939 register on her own at 37 Dovedale dr., Prestwich b.22.8.1895.

Harry shows his mother S.Strauss as N of K on his service records in 1918, his father was still living.? Air Force Muster Roll for 131718 H.Strauss dated 14th Feb, 1918.

Regards Barry

Edited 6 January , 2020 by The Inspector