GeriCourtney Posted 4 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2020 Piers, I think that the significant thing about the Hansard report is the fact that the authorities believed the men they had detained were spies. Interesting as I wonder what their next move was on this. Presumably they didn't need to prove anything, but the 'accused' would have to prove they were NOT spies. A bit of an unequal task. Thank you for looking at the Chanak Consular Cemetery. Clearly you know your way around the records!! If Chanak came under the jurisdiction of the British Army I would expect to be able to find the record of a deceased detainee, but if they weren't in charge then I wonder if such a thing would be noted, particularly if the detainees were considered to by their original nationality, Russian. James should have applied for hi naturalisation papers. Peter, I take your point about the slash maybe making a difference to a number, although we may yet find there exists such a battery/battalion in the British Army. I am beginning to think nothing is impossible. Thank you for the information on the various methods of log-keeping employed by the Army. Thank you all for your help and invaluable input from today as I think after just a mere 28 hours after my post I have received some great guidance. Hopefully by tomorrow my cousin will have fully responded to what I have told him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 4 January , 2020 Share Posted 4 January , 2020 On 03/01/2020 at 20:19, charlie962 said: James Strauss married Rose Crystal, Registered Salford Q3 1915. What does the Marriage Cerificate give as to his occupation ? Charlie What was the nature of his Manchester business ? Hi Sometimes searching for other family members turns up more info. The marriage cert. Number is 8d,366, This will give his address and occupation and his wife's details. Can you post any details you have regarding the birth of Joseph Strauss, registered 2nd qtr 1919, Salford, Greater Manchester, 8d, 76. Mother's maiden name Crystal. If Joseph is their child then his father "disappeared" shortly after his birth? Regards Barry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeriCourtney Posted 5 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2020 Piers, I think that the significant thing about the Hansard report is the fact that the authorities believed the men they had detained were spies. Interesting as I wonder what their next move was on this. Presumably they didn't need to prove anything, but the 'accused' would have to prove they were NOT spies. A bit of an unequal task. Thank you for looking at the Chanak Consular Cemetery. Clearly you know your way around the records!! If Chanak came under the jurisdiction of the British Army I would expect to be able to find the record of a deceased detainee, but if they weren't in charge then I wonder if such a thing would be noted, particularly if the detainees were considered to by their original nationality, Russian. James should have applied. Peter, I take your point about the slash maybe making a difference to a number, although we may yet find there exists such a battery/battalion in the British Army. I am beginning to think nothing is impossible. Thank you for the information on the various methods of log-keeping employed by the Army. Piers, I think that the significant thing about the Hansard report is the fact that the authorities believed the men they had detained were spies. Interesting as I wonder what their next move was on this. Presumably they didn't need to prove anything, but the 'accused' would have to prove they were NOT spies. A bit of an unequal task. Thank you for looking at the Chanak Consular Cemetery. Clearly you know your way around the records!! If Chanak came under the jurisdiction of the British Army I would expect to be able to find the record of a deceased detainee, but if they weren't in charge then I wonder if such a thing would be noted, particularly if the detainees were considered to by their original nationality, Russian. James should have applied. Peter, I take your point about the slash maybe making a difference to a number, although we may yet find there exists such a battery/battalion in the British Army. I am beginning to think nothing is impossible. Thank you for the information on the various methods of log-keeping employed by the Army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) On 03/01/2020 at 23:14, GeriCourtney said: No one has ever known what happened to him and he left a wife and 4 very young children. Perhaps someone can dig out the refs for the other 3 now that the Inspector Barry has highlighted that of Joseph ? All born presumably between 1915 and 1919 so essential to trace what he was 'occupied'( do Birth Certs give father's occupation or is it just marriage?) as during this period. Dates of birth and back calculation will also tell us where he was. charlie Edited 5 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PRC Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) 29 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Perhaps someone can dig out the refs for the other 3 now that the Inspector Barry has highlighted that of Joseph ? All born presumably between 1915 and 1919 so essential to trace what he was 'occupied'( do Birth Certs give father's occupation or is it just marriage?) as during this period. Dates of birth and back calculation will also tell us where he was. charlie Joseph Strauss, mothers maiden Crystal, registered in the Salford District in Q2 1919 is the only instance of this combination of surnames in England & Wales that is cropping up on FreeBMD, Genes Reunited and Familysearch - the sources I have access to. A search for other children registered with the surname Strauss or Straus in the Salford District in the period 1914 - 1925 period brings up no matches. So either there is a record recording error, a mis-transcription, the children were born outside England & Wales or his wife was either a single parent, (but no instances of children registered with the surname Crystal, mothers' maiden name Crystal in the published index post August 1911 when that mothers maiden name information started to be included) or she was a widow when she married - or I'm using the wrong search criteria! So back to the marriage certificate as a way forward unless anyone else has better luck. Cheers, Peter Edited 5 January , 2020 by PRC Typo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeriCourtney Posted 5 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2020 I have a had a brief synopsis from my cousin, who has only been known to me a matter of months having originally been 'found' by another family member. This has meant I have had to go slowly on asking for information around an obviously sensitive issue and the facts I now have are almost completely new to me. He has told me that in fact there were just two children, contrary to what I had been told before by another cousin, though it is likely she was confusing the number of children with those of Rose's parents. The baby, Joseph, was born a day after his father was deported on the 3rd May 1919. The other child was Morris, born on 16th December 1916. I have now seen copy birth certificates for both children who were born in Salford and Cheetham respectively. I also have more facts on James too and these seem to indicate he suspected he would be detained by the authorities. Apparently, later in her life Rose revealed that James went missing from their home and she went to James' parents home and she heard him coughing inside and found him hiding in a cupboard. She continued to visit him there and one day he was 'taken away and the last that I saw of him was in the back of an army truck'. I am still waiting for my cousin to comment on the remainder of my queries and information and as soon as I get a response then I will post again. Thank you for your help and your patience. To The Inspector: I notice that although I responded to your posting it is not appearing on this thread, so hope you received it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeriCourtney Posted 5 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2020 James Strauss' business and am ssuming it must be him standing outside. He actually made his cycles. I am hoping this will transmit okay!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) On 04/01/2020 at 13:02, charlie962 said: FO 1111/450/2 1920 "Internment" example of what one might find: (courtesy National archives) Interesting ref to 'interned at Chanak instead of .. not being sent to Odessa' From Hansard (1919): 1. https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1919-05-01/debates/78ed2c49-0de8-43da-8665-4ef118ba14fa/RussianSubjects(Deportation) 2. https://hansard.parliament.uk/commons/1919-10-30/debates/8d6fadd3-b9dd-4e12-a400-1deb6f4821ae/RussianSubjects JP Edited 5 January , 2020 by helpjpl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeriCourtney Posted 5 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2020 I have a had a brief synopsis from my cousin, who has only been known to me a matter of months having originally been 'found' by another family member. This has meant I have had to go slowly on asking for information around an obviously sensitive issue and the facts I now have are almost completely new to me. He has told me that in fact there were just two children, contrary to what I had been told before by another cousin, though it is likely she was confusing the number of children with those of Rose's parents. The baby, Joseph, was born a day after his father was deported on the 3rd May 1919. The other child was Morris, born on 16th December 1916. I have now seen copy birth certificates for both children who were born in Salford and Cheetham respectively. I also have more facts on James too and these seem to indicate he suspected he would be detained by the authorities. Apparently, later in her life Rose revealed that James went missing from their home and she went to James' parents home and she heard him coughing inside and found him hiding in a cupboard. She continued to visit him there and one day he was 'taken away and the last that I saw of him was in the back of an army truck'. I am still waiting for my cousin to comment on the remainder of my queries and information and as soon as I get a response then I will post again. Thank you for your help and your patience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeriCourtney Posted 5 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2020 helpjpl Thank you for your input concerning my post. The card from the FO is, of course, very interesting as I was told that Odessa was blocked to incoming ships and this does confirm a change. Another post for this card has been submitted but it has reminded me to share the card with another family member, so thank you. The Hansard items concerning the Russian detainees are an incredibly worrying part of this whole mystery and thank you for submitting those because of the relevance of what they contain. It becomes very apparent that we in the UK were totally aware of the risks to the detainees on returning them to Russia. Any Bolshevist sympathisers were hanged, and that is a very unpalatable fact for me to bear in mind in relation to my own ancestor, which promoted this post in the first place. I have no doubt that the reason he was never heard of again by any of his family was because he was 'dispensed with'. My grandmother, who was born in Latvia, told me tales of the people in the fields harvesting and singing, and often dancing. She used to say they were a happy people, but then after the occupation everything changed and they were slaughtered by the Russians in the fields as they stood. This was why her family decided, and managed, to get out to seek sanctuary in the UK. It is a dreadful history, like many, and her family were lucky to escape. For James, having escaped, he was returned to the new brutal masters on the face of what has been discovered on this forum, so far. Thank you for your contribution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) 1. If James Strauss did not die at Chanak Camp then it seems likely he was landed at Novorssisk on 06 September 1919 (see my previous post). 2. Quote https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1920/jun/15/prisoners-in-turkey HC Deb 15 June 1920 vol 130 c1052 1052 § 1. Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government still hold Russian prisoners at Constantinople, the Dardanelles, or other parts of Turkey; how many of these there are; what steps are being taken to release them; and what has been done with the Russians who were held at Fort Chanax up till last October? § The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Churchill) There are 11 Russian subjects interned at Chanak by the British Military Authorities for activities as secret service agents prejudicial to the safety of British troops. These members include those referred to in the question as being held there in October. The question of their repatriation is under consideration. With the exception of the detention of these 11 men, no Russians are held as prisoners by British Military Authorities at Constantinople, Dardanelles, or other parts of Turkey. The above, 15 June 1920, may refer to the Russian officers arrested at Newmarket Camp in 1919 and it seems there were no 'civilian' Russians still in detention at Chanak Camp by October 1919: https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1919/aug/13/training-of-russian-officers-newmarket#S5CV0119P0_19190813_HOC_227 JP Edited 5 January , 2020 by helpjpl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeriCourtney Posted 5 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2020 Thank you for these extracts. Given the comment that there were no civilian Russians in detention at October 1919 makes me fear that the rest had been sent back and disappeared forever. Does anyone with military connections understand the detainee and deportation process around that time, please? As James was apparently seen, in the back of an Army truck by Rose, I am assuming he was detained under their control. An earlier post shows that eleven Russian presumed spies remained under detention. Is it likely that there would have been any trial conducted and sentence passed, giving names of those held? In recent times when spies have been tried names have been publicised. BUT is wartime different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) 16 minutes ago, GeriCourtney said: understand the detainee and deportation process around that time, No expert but although the Military may have provided the transport logistics and manned the internment camps I think it was Foreign Office responsibility as to who should go where and when. As to Military intelligence services ?? The FO card re Odessa that I posted earlier has quite a few files referenced on it so is a 'must' to check out. Charlie Edit- Did the Birth certs give any ref to father's occupation? Edited 5 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeriCourtney Posted 5 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2020 Charlie Yes, on the BC for Morris it was cycle agent, on the BC for Joseph it was cycle maker. I have been searching online under the FO files but nothing has come up, so this confirms my need to head to Kew. I am now looking at the history of Novorossisysk and seeing where that takes me. Thanks! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 A few more sample cards from the 1919/1920 FO 1111 index and a couple fro FO 409 (post 1920) The problem is knowing which heading to look under! It is possible that there is an FO file backing up some of the PQ responses, eg as noted above in Hansard reports ? But LtCdr Kenworthy asked a lot of questions. Didn't see anything obvious under Deport'ndidn't see anything obvious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) Hi All According to a tree on Ancestry:- Morris Hyman Strauss was born 16th Dec. 1916, Manchester and died 17th May, 1981 in Johannesburg, S.Africa. His parents being Rose Crystal 1898- died 7th Aug.1973 South Africa and JACOB Strauss, born Russia who died 27th March, 1918. He was Pte.117520 RAMC 69th GH. Enlisted Stepney. According to SDGW he was accidentally killed in Egypt. His widow SARAH being sole legatee. CWGC no details of relatives or age. Morris H Strauss..birth recorded 1st qtr 1917, Prestwich, Lancashire. Mother's maiden surname Cristle, 8d, 420....looking Obviously the tree is correct regarding the date of birth of Morris as previously posted ........... Regards Barry Edited 5 January , 2020 by The Inspector Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, The Inspector said: and JACOB Strauss, born Russia who died 27th March, 1918. He was Pte.117520 RAMC 69th GH. Enlisted Stepney. According to SDGW he was accidentally killed in Egypt. His widow SARAH being sole legatee. CWGC no details of relatives or age. Soldiers Effects has this man with War Gratuity type 1 of 11/-/- implying service for most of the war so it must be one of those Ancestry trees with the wrong info for father of Morris; well found on cristle ! Edited 5 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 35 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Soldiers Effects has this man with War Gratuity type 1 of 11/-/- implying service for most of the war so it must be one of those Ancestry trees with the wrong info for father of Morris; well found on cristle ! It would give the following https://www.wargratuity.uk/war-gratuity-calculator/ Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RaySearching Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 34 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Soldiers Effects has this man with War Gratuity type 1 of 11/-/- implying service for most of the war so it must be one of those Ancestry trees with the wrong info for father of Morris; Pte 117520 Jacob Strauss was a naturalized british subject With no connection to this thread 1911 census Name: Jacob Strauss Age in 1911: 32 Estimated birth year: abt 1879 Relation to Head: Head Gender: Male Civil Parish: Limehouse County/Island: London Country: England Street address: 2 Copenhagen Place, Salmon Lane, Limehouse E Marital status: Married Years Married: 8 Estimated Marriage Year: 1903 Occupation: HAIRDRESSER Registration district: Stepney Registration District Number: 20 Sub-registration district: Limehouse Jacob Strauss 32 Sarah Strauss 33 May Strauss 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) A 'Red' herring ?? Craig- thanks for the calc, excellent as usual. Charlie Edited 5 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspector Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 Hi All Thanks for the info. on Jacob Strauss, at least we know more than the CWGC ! It will be interesting to find out from Geri who his g/g/mother was and see if it cross references to the tree. Regards Barry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnboy Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) As an aside, how could britain deport someone from another country? Not Britain itself Edited 5 January , 2020 by johnboy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeriCourtney Posted 5 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2020 I am afraid that I am unable to follow this train of thought concerning Rose Crystal, Jacob and Sarah Strauss and also Morris. Could someone please explain it to me? I only recognise Rose and Morris from this but none of the other players. Nor does Limehouse figure as a place where the Strauss family lived. Strauss is a very common name and there are many Strausses, in particular, living in London at this time. Sorry not to see what and where this is going - so am I missing something obvious, please? Thanks all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 6 January , 2020 Share Posted 6 January , 2020 22 minutes ago, GeriCourtney said: I am afraid that I am unable to follow this train of thought concerning Rose Crystal, Jacob and Sarah Strauss and also Morris. Could someone please explain it to me? I only recognise Rose and Morris from this but none of the other players. Nor does Limehouse figure as a place where the Strauss family lived. Strauss is a very common name and there are many Strausses, in particular, living in London at this time. Sorry not to see what and where this is going - so am I missing something obvious, please? Thanks all. The posts refer to a family tree on the genealogy site ancestry which is incorrect. According to the tree Rose was the wife of a Jacob Strauss, not James, and Jacob and Rose had a son Morris Hyman Strauss who was born in Manchester on 16 December 1916. This Jacob Strauss, a Private in the Royal Army Medical Corps, died in Egypt on 27 March 1918 and his widow is recorded as Sarah. JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pierssc Posted 6 January , 2020 Share Posted 6 January , 2020 (edited) 21 hours ago, johnboy said: As an aside, how could britain deport someone from another country? Not Britain itself Johnboy, they were in Britain, and were deported from there. These deported Russian citizens were being sent to Odessa in the Crimea (then in Russia) [EDIT: DOH! - West of Crimea] but seem to have had to stop at Chanak en route (where they were locked up in an allied base) because Odessa had fallen to the Bolsheviks. Some of them seem to have eventually been sent to Novorossysk instead. This is a little east of Crimea on the Black Sea and was the base for the White Russian leader General Denikin. As far as these supposedly Bolshevik sympathising deportees were concerned this was probably a matter of escaping the frying pan for the fire because they weren't going to get a friendly reception in either place as long as they were held by the Whites. The ethics of all this are rather unsavoury. So this Chanak bit is all part of a process of deportation from Britain. In response to another point earlier I'm no expert either but I would have thought that in Britain the relevant players would be the Home Office and MI5/Special Branch. The FO would have become involved once they got off the ship in Chanak. Why they seem to have stuck so long in Chanak is a puzzle because one would have thought that if Odessa wasn't available as a destination they would have been sent on to an alternative as quickly as possible. Perhaps it was a matter of having to get instructions to depart from the original plan and/or arguing over who was going to foot the bill, mixed up with inter-departmental inertia between the HO and FO. Something doesn't make sense because If Odessa had fallen in April 1919 why were they trying to send them there in May? Perhaps it is just an example of one theory of history? The HO decides to send them to Odessa, but not being too well up on foreign affairs and not realising they couldn't, they stick them on a boat labelled "Forward to Odessa - not wanted on voyage" and wave them off at the docks. When they get stopped at Chanak at the control point someone says "Just a minute sonny, you can't send those men to Odessa, don't you know the reds have taken it?" So they haul them off the boat and lock them up. There's then lengthy correspondence with the HO who don't want to admit they have made a big time boo-boo but as far as they are concerned they have solved their problem by deporting them so aren't very interested any more. The FO on the other hand want to get rid of them but can't think where to send them because no one wants them. No one wants to have to pay. So they go into a sort of limbo punctuated by occasional questions in Parliament which are adroitly fielded by ministers. Meanwhile Odessa is recaptured by the Whites and held for a few months but no one sends them on. Eventually someone says "Oh for goodness sake, just get rid of them" so they set sent on to Novorossysk and everyone relaxes - except for the unfortunate deportees who probably get bumped off when they get off the ship. This is just speculation on my part, of course. By the time of the questions in Parliament in 1920 about the remaining 11 there wasn't anywhere left to send them. I wonder if @wrightdw has any thoughts on this thread? Edited 6 January , 2020 by pierssc Corrected geographical error Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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