Help please regarding a family mystery.

3 January , 2020

Thank you all for your help this evening. Unfortunately I now have to go out to collect someone but I am very grateful for your help,and input. You've all been very kind. Goodnight!

4 January , 2020

I’ve been following this with interest and would like to make a few observations – apologies in advance if they turn out to be red (no pun intended) herrings

If he is indeed the Abraham Strauss identified by @charlie962 in post 14 then he and all his family were still Russian citizens. Unless Abraham became a British National between April 1911 and November 1918 then there would have been no mainstream way for him to join the British Armed Services.

I’m almost going to make an assumption given the family first names and that they had come to the UK from Russia that they were Jewish.

Questions for Geri.

- Did your researcher check for naturalisation papers \ notices in the newspapers

- Do you know which part of Russia the family came from?

- The British Board of Jewry produced a Roll of Honour of those who served – has this been checked. It’s particularly useful as it includes those who served only in the UK. Such servicemen didn’t qualify for any medals – and it’s the paperwork relating to the award and issue of medals that has survived and provided the bedrock of researching individual soldiers until these pension cards and ledgers became available. You may not be aware but the bulk of service records were destroyed during the Blitz. Sorry – the question is – did your researcher check this Roll of Honour out, not just for Abraham\James, but for his brothers as well?

Next observations. During the war, if he was still a foreign national, my understanding is that he would have been required to register with the police and regularly report in. My understanding was also that allies were exempt but I’ve recently come across press reports of fines imposed on French and Russian individuals who were found outside the area where they were registered, so possibly it was just the checks were less intrusive.

Questions for Geri.

- Did your researcher check to see if the Manchester Police record of Great War era alien registrations has survived?

You didn’t answer Charlies question also in post 14, but as you say the Deportation Register was found at the National Archive, the assumption has to be that he was deported from the UK to Odessa via Chanak.

Question for Geri.

- You say you have a place and date for the trial – have national and local papers been checked for reports? (I can’t see anything obvious in The Times).

- Presumably no Special Branch files have turned up under the 100 year release rule?

Bolshevism was a major theme in the UK news with Bolshevik agitators behind everything, particularly the major outbreaks of civil riots and union strike action that would break out while the summer went on. If he was a legitimate “undesirable Bolshevik” then I would have thought the authorities would have wanted the case well publicised – even more so if, for example, they were trying to plant a mole.

But if you were sending a spy to Russia, going via Odessa seems an odd way to do it – the White Russian Army were being aided by the Greeks and the French with only Royal Navy support in the Black Sea as far as I can gauge. Not ony that but given that this was a war in which prisoners were seldom taken handing over an undercover spy with a cover story of being an undesirable Bolshevik to the White Russians would have been a practical death sentence. And then you have to ask what could he achieve – the Allies intention in the first half of 1919 was to wipe out the Communists not plan to spy on their future regime.

The best use he might have as a stool pigeon, listening in on the gossip of his fellow internees for tidbits that might reveal other Bolsheviks in the UK that the authorities were unaware of. In which case the plan was probably for him never to get to Odessa.

Which in some ways may have been good news – because as far as I can gather Odessa fell to the Bolsheviks in April 1919 according to this image, (might be later in our calendar as it seems to be difficult to come up with an exact date).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa#/media/File:Entry_of_the_Red_Army_in_Odessa,_April_1919.jpg

So I suspect he ended up indefinitely in a holding camp at Chanak. And of course if he died there, as a Russian national his death would not be registered with the British consulate. I certainly can’t find any records for any Abraham or James Strauss in the records of British Nationals who died overseas. On the basis that he ran his own business I also tried looking for a probate as even a basic entry in the UK Probate Calendar might give a date and place where he was believed to have died. I went throught to 1942 on the basis that his wife might have had to wait seven years before she could apply to the court to have him treated as dead but came up with nothing.

Of course the Pension Card that has been referred to was a Ministry of Pensions card, not a War Office or Admiralty or Air Ministry document. The cards and ledgers were saved by the Western Front Association from being dumped and so may include all kind of other pensions, including as has been pointed out, claims for ones that have been turned down. So potentially you could be looking for a pension claim, for example, for someone who died while in detention by the British Government just as easily as a pension for a dead spy.

Hope that doesn’t start too many hares running,

Peter

Edited 4 January , 2020 by PRC
Typo

4 January , 2020

This may or may not be relevant, but a search of Soldiers Effects, using 'Chanak' as a keywork gives 6 deaths there, all in 1922. None are for Abraham/James. The pension record card is undated.

What if 183 Batt. stood for 183 Battery {R.F.A or R.G.A.}?

What is the Russian version of James' as a first name?

The British Jewry Book of Honour {on Findndmypast} show a Cpl. J. Strauss, Middlesex Labour Regiment, in the section for ,Home Duties'. There is no Abraham Strauss mentioned {but there is an A.L. Strauss - 17th London Regiment}.

Deportation Orders at T.N.A. are listed here;- https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r/1?_q=deportation register&_ps=60&_p=1900 There is no specific mention of Abraham/James, but he may be mentioned in one of the first four files shown, HO 372 19, 20, 21 or 22.

Regards,

Alf McM

4 January , 2020

I am attempting to answer all the questions posed by PRC and Alf in the following lengthy response! Thank you both for your interest and help on what has proved to be a very frustrating and generally perplexing situation for me. Your knowledge of where to look for information has made me realise how little I know about anything to do with the military, so a lesson learned!

PRC, thank you for your interest and very thoughtful questions and information. Yes, the Strauss family were Russian Jews. They came originally from Lithuania, but latterly Latvia which was used as a staging post to depart. I had no idea about the nationality requirement to join the Army, (or all forces?) This is the first time I have had to look at anything connected to the military since I started researching my family, so absolutely everything is new!

The dates in the Deportation Register for James come under the official headings of, & read: Decision & date of order 02.04.19; Destination: To Odessa, 02.05.19. Having checked the copy I was sent I can see on magnified reading that the year of revocation for deportation was 1951 and not 1956. 32 years after the event! Why? And where is the paperwork of explanation?

The researcher was employed by my cousin who lives overseas and I know nothing of what was agreed or what resulted, with the exception of i) he found the WFA card as it is shown in Ray's download, and ii) a copy of the page of the relevant entry for the deportation of James, which I have. I think his brief was limited but it happened some time ago. The WFA card is something I have never seen before and I have no idea what, if any, information is missing and should have been entered on it. As far as the family appear to know, Rose had a pension. There are no other papers that I know of, and this is why I feel I should probably visit Kew to find out more. The particular Register is one that Alf (see his post) mentions and is the second of the four he details separately in his last paragraph. The NA have confirmed that none of these four registers is digitised, so it requires a personal appearance to look at it. With regard to my comment about 'trial' , I did prefix this with 'possibly'. I have no idea how the decision to deport was eventually reached , but as the UK is generally considered to be democratic, I assumed there would have been some proper discussion and exchange of information between 'accuser' and 'accused', even in those days.

Could you please give me a link to the area of The Times where you checked for Abraham, as I already have a permanent subscription to the newspaper? Thank you. I didn't know about the Blitz destroying papers, nor did I find any Strauss brothers on the Roll. There was only one other brother and he had already left for the US.

David Tattersfield, who I initially approached, directed me to this Forum for help. I had asked him about the 183rd Battery, but he corrected this and said it was the 183rd Battalion. I hadn't known what the initials Batt stood for. Regardless of this, I have been unable to find a Battalion of that number, nor a Battery, except foreign ones. And this has been confirmed by others.

Yes, I searched for Naturalisation Papers for Abraham/James, and Sarah and Louis and none of them ever applied as far as I could trace. (I do have previous experience of this particular aspect). I also got the Aliens Register for all people with the surname Strauss living in Manchester and Salford (1916-1964). Some of the Strauss family remained listed as Aliens until their deaths, dates for which had been noted on their files. Abraham/James did not appear. It included Sarah and Louis and one son and one daughter, plus the widow of James, Rose. All other children were living abroad by this time, so I guess this explains why they were not included.

The idea of James being sent back from the UK to Odessa is a very puzzling one, as he had never lived anywhere near there, had no family and would have been like a fish out of water. He was nearly a thousand miles from home there, and at least 940 miles from Riga from where he left with his parents and siblings. Why leave him in a country where he didn't necessarily speak the language? I did wonder about ships lists and if the military would have issued one, and if it would be in the NA. No one though seems to know any ships that sailed from Chanak to Odessa. The only ones I could find seemed to have either been sunk or badly damaged. But did James ever end up in Odessa or was he actually sent elsewhere? What was the purpose and why? And why was his family totally oblivious and uninformed about his whereabouts? Why was his wife never told if he had died, or where his body was?

Alf, thank you very much also for your help and information, which is extremely useful. I hadn't thought about the Book of Honour, but unfortunately no one fulfils the criteria in terms of dates as I have now looked at it. And I am sure to use it again. Regarding Battery versus Battalion, as you have probably read David Tattersfield confirmed the latter, though neither of us knew there wasn't one until I also did a search. And thank you for looking under Soldiers Effects, something else I didn't know about! And I am also very grateful for the link to the NA Registers as, no matter what term I entered in Discovery, this would not come up for me! James would equate to Yakov in Russian, and Abraham would be Avram. Obviously I had to check this and I haven't added the Russian spelling.

I do hope I have adequately answered all the questions posed, but if I haven't then please say so.

I am very appreciative of the help everyone is giving me, as the military bit and also the fate of James are both totally outside my sphere of experience. Thank you everyone.

4 January , 2020

I don't know if the following two topics are directly relevant, but perhaps the may provide some background information.

"Lithuanians sent from Scotland to Russia"

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/168247-lithuanians-sent-from-scotland-to-russia/

"A Russian and the British Army"

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/242487-a-russian-and-the-british-army/?tab=comments#comment-2440383

A question: Chanak mentioned above. Is that Chanak in the Dardanelles?

Cheers

Maureen

4 January , 2020

11 hours ago, charlie962 said:

However he might be intrigued ? (that link I've posted should send him an alert)

Thanks Charlie. This is fascinating. Geri contacted me but I thought a better answer than I could provide would be available from the numerous experts on the forum.

Looking at the card, I interpreted the abbreviation as Battalion, not battery.

The idea that he was some kind of double agent and therefore his widow being paid a pension seems a reasonable hypothesis. If this is the case then there may be other examples of these 'double agents' within the cards. Finding these would of course support the theory but I suspect finding a list of MI6 / James Bond types is (to say the least) unlikely.

4 January , 2020

9 hours ago, alf mcm said:

The pension record card is undated.

The reverse of the pension ledger card (image post 22)

has been faintly rubber stamped 11 Sept 1926

the reverse of the pension card follows the front of the card on the film roll

If the claimant (the widow) was entitled to a pension one would expect to find a pension card with the details of the pension awarded

That is, if it has not been lost with the passage of time

or the claim for a pension was an erroneous claim and the claimant was not entitled to receive one

so no action or award was made

Ray

Edited 4 January , 2020 by RaySearching

4 January , 2020

6 hours ago, GeriCourtney said:

The dates in the Deportation Register for James come under the official headings of, & read: Decision & date of order 02.04.19; Destination: To Odessa, 02.05.19.

Apologies - the cogs whirr very slowly but get there in the end. Can we safely assume that the very fact that Abraham \ James was deported means that he was still a Russian rather than a British National? As you say, even in the midst of war we were still a basically democratic country with "due process", so to strip him of his(recent) British Nationality, if he ever had it, would have still probably aroused all the sorts of arguments seen, for example, in the decisions to strip Isis fighters of their British nationality.

9 hours ago, PRC said:

Which in some ways may have been good news – because as far as I can gather Odessa fell to the Bolsheviks in April 1919 according to this image, (might be later in our calendar as it seems to be difficult to come up with an exact date).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa#/media/File:Entry_of_the_Red_Army_in_Odessa,_April_1919.jpg

The edition of The Times, dated Wednesday 19th March 1919, in a piece dated the previous day from the Paris correspondent reports the French and Greeks were now evacuating Odessa, having enjoyed very little support from the local units of the White Russian Army and with the Bolsheviks now 12.5 miles from the city. There is no mention of any British involvement.

Over the next few days there are reports that the French General in charge of the city has announced there are no plans to withdraw, then that the French Consul has left, a joint French & Greek garrison 50 miles north of Odessa was cut-off by the collapse of the White Russian front and there was no hope of relief and the Bolsheviks were in the outskirts of Odessa and threatening the citys water supply.

The edition of the April 11,1919 is particularly insightful. Reluctantly the French General in command accepted that the city had to be abandonned and began to withdraw troops westwards along the coast along with the foreign population and some of the natives. The reasons given were that deprived of its local supply area and swollen with refugees, the city could only be kept supplied by sea. The quantites required were more than readily available locally so would have had to come large distances, the amount of shipping tonnage required exceeded what was available and (most importantly), given the military situation, the allies had inadequate resources to protect that shipping in the Black Sea. Note even the troops aren't pulled out by sea.

I labour the point because any judge or tribunaral sitting in April 1919 and any deportation in May 1919 would have known that delivery to Odessa was totally impracticable. Indeed delivery to Archangel, which was a British \ American base of operations, would have seemed far more practical and achievable, and if he was a spy, closer to the area where he would have local knowledge. I seem to remember there was also a British naval and air base in the Gulf of Finland that could have been used as a stepping off point.

7 hours ago, GeriCourtney said:

Could you please give me a link to the area of The Times where you checked for Abraham, as I already have a permanent subscription to the newspaper?

As part of my membership of the local public library I gain free access to the Times Digital Archive on any device. I believe that's fairly standard for most UK library services. Unfortunately means I can't send you a link.

Cheers,

Peter

4 January , 2020

13 hours ago, RaySearching said:

For the benefit of interested parties

I have taken the liberty of adding the document discussed

on this thread

Thanks for posting the card Ray.

The card was written out no earlier than May 1925 (as that was when it was printed).

Clearly the wife thought she was entitled to a widow's pension for some reason but if there had been a pension put in to payment then the Pension Issue Office (PIO) reference would typically be completed with their file reference. The fact that it hasn't would suggest to me that it is a record of a claim being made but not paid - there are cards that seem to be nothing more than a record that a claim had been lodged.

Craig

4 January , 2020

Fascinating inputs from all.

Battalion or Battery. How many times have we seen confusion over this so I wouldn't put it past Rose (who presumably made a claim) to have been confused.

The Labour Corps used to run the PoW Camps with Battallions then Companies. All this was transferred (1921 ?) to Army service corps /Royal Army Service Corps I think. So could 183 refer to a PoW unit ? I still think he was probably an inmate rather than a guardian.

The reference to a J Strauss Middlesex Labour made me wonder if there was a link to PoW companies but I see there are numerous J Strauss refs in London.

I still think it would be useful (if only to discount them) to see the 1915 marriage cert details for James/Rose. There is reference by OP to children; what is on their birth certificates ?

Charlie

PS Would Foreign Office be involved ? Is there any ref in the FO card index that can be viewed online at NA ? Guest had a good handle on this.

edit--- FO 1111 series if I recall; I shall look...... (it only covers correspondence up to 1920)

Update re FO1111 eg FO1111/492/2 1919-20 (but may have no relevance whatsoever) The only card for A or J Straus or Strauss

update- FO1111/393/2 covers 1918 but nothing appropriate under Strauss

As I said above this FO1111 only covers FO correspondence up to 1920. Perhaps FO retain subsequent dates ?

I have only looked for Strauss. Perhaps one should also look at Internment Camps, Turkey, Bolshevik, Canak etc........ ? Even 'secret service' has some cards. FO1111 is a wonderful index to get sidetracked !

4 January , 2020

18 minutes ago, charlie962 said:

So could 183 refer to a PoW unit ?

That what I was thinking as well Charlie - 183rd seems far too high for a battalion but not for a company or battery.

Craig

4 January , 2020

When looking for Labour companies involved with POW's I did not come across 183.

4 January , 2020

FO 1111/450/2 1920 "Internment" example of what one might find: (courtesy National archives)

Interesting ref to 'interned at Chanak instead of .. not being sent to Odessa'

The 38 is country code for Russia

~~I do not know how to get at anything post 1920~~ but it does seem that FO files will have some interesting background.

Update There are NA guides to FO Correspondence Files 1920 onwards here

Edited 4 January , 2020 by charlie962

4 January , 2020

1 hour ago, charlie962 said:

The Labour Corps used to run the PoW Camps with Battallions then Companies. All this was transferred (1921 ,) to Army service corps /Royal Army Service Corps I think. So could 183 refer to a PoW unit ? I still think he was probably an inmate rather than a guardian.

There were the 182 and 183 companies of the Labour Corps, but would they still have been in existence at this time? They do not seem to have been specifically involved with POWs

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-labour-corps-of-1917-1918/labour-companies-of-the-labour-corps/

4 January , 2020

Remember we must keep referring back to 1914-18 issues to keep within forum remit. eg 1915 marriage cert etc. I would contend that we need to look at post-war to find clues to 14-18 period.

4 January , 2020

I wrote a lengthy post here - while doing so various other posts came in which threw additional light on things. Rather than keep tweaking it, better that it goes for now.

Odessa fell to the reds in April 1919, but was recaptured in August 1919 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa_Operation_(1919)

It fell for the second time in February 1920.

Edited 4 January , 2020 by pierssc
Revised in light of posts in while original being written

4 January , 2020

This information is simply amazing and thank you to everyone who is contributing. I feel quite overwhelmed by everything that is appearing and the depth of the knowledge you all have. I am awaiting some comments from my cousin, whose great grandfather is James, so I may not be able to answer all the questions posed.

Thank you Maureen for the information contained within the links you sent which I have passed on to my cousin. I personally find this interesting because of my own family, a separate one, as some were Lithuanian by origin and one was a Lanarkshire miner who took over 30 years to gain naturalisation because of his political sympathies, and a habit of trying to pull the wool over the eyes of the authorities. But that's another story. I need to share that link with others and am re-reading everything later today. Regarding Chanak, yes, it is in the Dardanelles.

Ray, thank you for the date and the information on the card. I am sharing this link with my cousin for his comments as it gives a timeframe to the question of can we find any documents around that time that might be significant. Craig, thank you for your input regarding the card which again I am sharing with my cousin.

Charlie, the FO cards are fascinating and also interesting given the information. So, possibly Odessa did not figure in respect of James. Once I go to the NA I will put in a request and see if there is anything else to be found of relevance. And thank you for reminding us to stay within the correct timeframe.

Keith, the Labour Corps are something I am vaguely familiar with in connection with my 'other' family. My Grandpa who was Polish (Poland was occupied by Russia at this time) was a member of the Russian Labour Corps here in the UK. If you joined you were virtually sure of gaining British citizenship. Piers, I shall re-read the link concerning the Odessa Operation to gain some context, and thank you.

And Charlie, thanks for the earlier mention of the Labour Corps.

I need to make one correction here concerning the family of James, which I overlooked as it is slightly complicated. To simplify, the Strauss element of his family state they came from Latvia, the maternal element purport to come from Latvia too but I believe they came from Lithuania. It is too complicated to go into here but my great grandmother was definitely born in Lithuania and I believe all the siblings were.

i hope I have answered and understood everyone and will return once I have more information from my cousin. Thank you all.

4 January , 2020

1)

I note people are discussing the 183rd Battalion, but wondered if 183rd. Batt. could refer to a Battery.

In the Long Long Trail I have found:

183 (Howitzer) Brigade, RFA.

183 Battery, a Heavy Battery of the RGA.

183 Battery, a Siege Battery of the RGA.

2)

Does Chanak refer to Canakkale in the Gallipoli Peninsula?

aim

Sorry - just seen posts 28 and 30 above. I was answering the first page of this topic - forgot about the second page.

aim

Edited 4 January , 2020 by aim
stupidity on my part. aim

4 January , 2020

Just thinking out loud and picking up on Charlies comments about tieing it back to Great War Documents.

If there was an internment camp at Chanak, would it not be likely that British Army units at Chanak may either have been called on to guard it or would have interaction with any unit that specifically were charged with guarding the camp. And in my experience, unless the units were disbanded, War Diaries seemd to continue on until mid-1919.

So a website like this one tells us that the 2nd Battalion Kings Own Royal Lancaster Regiment was there in 1919 as part of 28th Division.

http://www.kingsownmuseum.com/gallerywwone041.htm

Unfortunately I know they served at Salonika and so their war diary won't be digitised, but I wonder if one of our Salonika experts has the organisation structure for the 1919 deployment at Chanak to establish what the relevant diary might be that might best set out where the local control of such a camp lay.

So, for example, - if it was only a single division, would the divisional commander also be likely to O.C. Chanak? and if so would the Divisional War Diary be likely to include records relating to the camp.

Hope that makes sense and feel free to ignore if not

Cheers,

Peter

4 January , 2020

Not sure if this has been said elsewhere but one of the bits that went when I deleted my earlier post was that Chanak was where all vessels entering or leaving the Dardanelles in 1919 had to anchor in an "Examination Area" to be inspected by Allied Port Control Officers - French, British and Italian. The 1920 Treaty of Sevres set up a neutral Zone in the Dardanelles. British and French troops enforcing this were still in Chanak at the time of the "Chanak Crisis" in 1922. This zone disappeared with the 1923 Treaty of Lausanne when Chanak went back to Turkey. But we are straying out of period.

Edited 4 January , 2020 by pierssc

4 January , 2020

Interesting

https://api.parliament.uk/historic-hansard/commons/1920/jun/15/prisoners-in-turkey

HC Deb 15 June 1920 vol 130 c1052 1052

§ 1. Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
asked the Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs whether His Majesty's Government still hold Russian prisoners at Constantinople, the Dardanelles, or other parts of Turkey; how many of these there are; what steps are being taken to release them; and what has been done with the Russians who were held at Fort Chanax up till last October?

§ The SECRETARY of STATE for WAR (Mr. Churchill)
There are 11 Russian subjects interned at Chanak by the British Military Authorities for activities as secret service agents prejudicial to the safety of British troops. These members include those referred to in the question as being held there in October. The question of their repatriation is under consideration. With the exception of the detention of these 11 men, no Russians are held as prisoners by British Military Authorities at Constantinople, Dardanelles, or other parts of Turkey.

§ Lieut.-Commander KENWORTHY
Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that one of these men is married to an English woman living in my constituency, and that nothing has been heard since October, and can he give any details?

Mr. C. PALMER
Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether British prisoners in Russia have been released?

§ Mr. CHURCHILL
That is not a matter on which I can give information.

§ Lieut. - Commander KENWORTHY
May I have an assurance as to this man?

4 January , 2020