Chris Godfrey Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 Hello I was wondering if anyone can help me extract some details from ancestry with regards to my partners great grandfather Arthur Stanley Pickis. He served under the 11th County of London Bn reg 2239 and Machine Gun Corps 49241. I know he was awarded a number of medals and I think it says he was a gallipoli. I was wondering If someone could confirm any of that for me as some of the records are difficult to read. Link below https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1219/30973_183383-00554/1537696?backUrl=http%3a%2f%2fsearch.ancestry.co.uk%2fcgi-bin%2fsse.dll%3findiv%3d1%26dbid%3d1219%26h%3d1537696%26tid%3d165340391%26pid%3d332155986002%26usePUB%3dtrue%26_phsrc%3dLvG2429%26_phstart%3dsuccessSource&ssrc=&_ga=2.261083406.2032436472.1578040945-132079334.1570799517 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BFBSM Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 I can tell you, he was awarded the Sultan’s Sudan Medal, serving with the 54th Bn MG Corps. The first theatre of war, as shown on the MIC, in which he served is shown as 3, which here: http://www.greatwar.co.uk/places/ww1-theatres-of-war.htm, is shown as being Russia. He was awarded the 1915 Star, the BWM and the VM. The service records show he did indeed serve on Gallipoli. Have you signed up for the trial period? I understand, that if you cancel your membership within that period there is no charge. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 he has a very nice group of medals - the latter being quite unusual https://www.ancestry.co.uk/interactive/1262/30850_A001236-01108?pid=5604566&backurl=https://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?_phsrc%3DBto42%26_phstart%3DsuccessSource%26usePUBJs%3Dtrue%26indiv%3D1%26dbid%3D1262%26gsfn%3Darthur%26gsln%3Dpickis%26cp%3D0%26new%3D1%26rank%3D1%26uidh%3Dfdm%26redir%3Dfalse%26msT%3D1%26gss%3Dangs-d%26pcat%3D39%26fh%3D0%26h%3D5604566%26recoff%3D%26ml_rpos%3D1&treeid=&personid=&hintid=&usePUB=true&_phsrc=Bto42&_phstart=successSource&usePUBJs=true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GWF1967 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 28 minutes ago, BFBSM said: The first theatre of war, as shown on the MIC, in which he served is shown as 3, which here: http://www.greatwar.co.uk/places/ww1-theatres-of-war.htm, is shown as being Russia. He was awarded the 1915 Star, the BWM and the VM. Mark I believe his first theatre of war would be Egypt (3) If he went overseas before 1st Jan 1916. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 His papers say Expeditionary Force Mediterranean 29th July 1915 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 the images on FMP do indeed look quite blury, but if you zoom in they are fine - just checking you have tried that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Godfrey Posted 3 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2020 I've been doing family research for a few years but I'm afraid my record reading skills still lack although its getting better slowly. Thank you all for taking the time to look at this for me. It's very much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 The most important pages for understanding his overseas service are 36238 and 9 in the ancestry records The long trail tells us the following re the 11th Battalion London regiment "1/11th (County of London) Battalion (Finsbury Rifles) August 1914 : at 17 Penton Street in Pentonville. Record same as 1/10th Bn except that the battalion sailed from Liverpool on 29 July 1915 So: 1/10th (County of London) Battalion (Hackney Late July 1915 : sailed from Plymouth for Gallipoli, going via Mudros. Landed at Suvla Bay 11 August 1915. December 1915 : evacuated from Gallipoli and moved to Egypt." The war diary for 11th Londons overseas service on ancestery starts here. My one concern would be when and where he landed. The unit seemed to go via Mudros etc and landed Suvla Bay on 11/8/15. His 1914/15 Star medal record give his first qualifying theatre of war as Egypt (3) and the qualifying date as the day he left the UK. . This seems odd as it should in theory be 2b(Gallipoli) if he was with his unit. The 3rd East Anglian Field Ambulance and 16th Casualty Clearing Station where he was admitted for jaundice end Nov/early Dec were certainly in Gallipoli at the time but about to move out. So my view is he went to Gallipoli although we cannot be sure of exact entry date and left there early Dec as the unit moved. Landing in Egypt on 18/12/15. The war diary is certainly worth a read. I need to have a look for other 11th Bn men and see how they were recorded for medal puposes, It is oted the man next to him on the MGC medal roll also shows Egypt. There are 2 on the previous page one showing Egypt, the other Gallipoli 10/8/15. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Godfrey Posted 3 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2020 Is the war diary about himself or the regiment he was in. This is hugely fascinating thank you for finding this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 (edited) The battalion he was in. Other ranks are rarely mentioned by name. It will however give you an idea of where he was and what the unit was up to. As indicated in my post I am confused by the ref to Egypt for the July/Aug 1915 when the diary shows the unit went directly to Gallipoli stopping off on a few islands on the way. So I cannot say he landed on 10-11/8/15 at Suvla Bay, Gallipoli for certain but he may have done. That he was in Gallipoli later seems certain. Need to look at some other 11th Battalion men to hazard an opinion. His later overseas seems to have been in the Egypt area There may well be further war diaries for his MGC units Edited 3 January , 2020 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Godfrey Posted 3 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2020 Would you be so kind in letting me know if you can confirm this at all. This would be greatly appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 Do my best but may not be possible. Note that on 28/11/15 the day he was admitted to the Field Ambulance the diary says "2 men to Hospital". One assumes he is one of these men. It puts his unit at Anzac. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 (edited) So looking through a number of men there appears to be an issue with men from the 11th Londons Medal records 2 examples illustrate the issue 1648 William Hannan KIA 18/8/15 Gallipoli 1622 James Harman KIA 17/8/15 Gallipoli Both these men have Medal index cards with 10/8/15 as the 1914/15 Star qualifying date and Egypt, 3, as the theatre. This is what is on the 1914/5 Star Medal Roll. KIA in Gallipoi a week later!! However, both these men's British War and Victory Medal Roll show them 2B (Gallipoli) from 10/8/15 until death. Both men are remembered on the Helles Memorial. See here for the records and you can check other examples from the 11th, Pickis medal roll entries are in the MGC rolls. My conclusion is that unless otherwise indicated by service docs all these men landed at Suvla on 10/8/15. It seem reasonable to say that Pickis did as well. There is nothing in his docs to suggest otherwise. I would appreciate views from experienced GWF contributors. Edited 3 January , 2020 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Godfrey Posted 3 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2020 So from what you have found was he at gallipoli and then moved on from there Egypt but as part of the machine gunner corps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 He transferred to the MGC 17 July 1916 which is date he left the med theatre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Godfrey Posted 3 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 3 January , 2020 Ok great thank you very much Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 4 January , 2020 Share Posted 4 January , 2020 (edited) My interpretation is that he went first to the Gallipoli area. Many of the 11th Londons men's medal records show Egypt 3 - this is what is used for qualification of the 1914/5 Star. However, the war and victory medal records has them going to Gallipoli 2b directly - most showing 10/8/15 the day they landed. Therefore I believe Egypt records to be wrong as the War Diary clearly shows the unit went directly to Gallipoli. This is an occasion where the medal records say 2 different things. So one has to look at other records. The War Diary is a primary source that says the unit went nowhere near Egypt in Aug 1915. Therefore, the conclusion is obvious. I will look to see if I can find the diaries for his MGC units His records on ancestry show he was with 11th Londons until 24/4/16 Attached 162 Brigade Company MGC 25/4/16 and was with them until they bacame 54th Division MG Battalion. LLT says 162 MGC Company: "Formed in 54th Division, 26 April 1916. Moved into No 54 Bn, MGC 19 April 1918" So he was one of the men used to form the company in April 1916. Edited 5 January , 2020 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Godfrey Posted 4 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2020 Hi Mark. This is great thank you very much. I wonder if I can locate any photographs perhaps. I will have a look Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 5 January , 2020 Share Posted 5 January , 2020 (edited) The period after the 11th Londons left Gallipoli appears to be covered by this War Diary https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557807 Note not yet digitised. So can only be viewed at PRO at Kew. Will cover their Egypt/Palestine area exploits This following War Diary I think covers the 54th Divisional MG BAttalion from April 1918 https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557798 Not digitised either This leaves the 162 Brigade Company MGC from Apr 1916 onwards to find. Edited 5 January , 2020 by Mark1959 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Godfrey Posted 5 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2020 Hi mark. Thank you so much for this. This is very much appreciated Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark1959 Posted 6 January , 2020 Share Posted 6 January , 2020 Cannot find a diary for 162 Company MGC. It was part of 162 Infantry Brigade and could be in this diary https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C4557806 Althought National Archives only mentions 2 infantry battalions. Probably the best bet. The company would have been with the battalions. Again not digitised Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Godfrey Posted 6 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2020 Thank you again. Do you know anywhere where I could locate photographs for his regiment etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coldstreamer Posted 6 January , 2020 Share Posted 6 January , 2020 google images good place to try also old newspapers ebay ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Godfrey Posted 6 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 6 January , 2020 Good tips thank you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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