Dispatches Earl Cavan

[Deborah P]

I am trying to find out about my grandfather I never knew. His names was James Watson Paterson and was in the Scots Guards. I think he became a captain. His number was 12885 Can anyone tell me some information. I don’t have his birth or death date. He went to school in Edinburgh we were told.

Edited 17 March , 2019 by Michelle Young
Title changed

[Mark1959]

His number was 12185. To France 25/5/15. Commissioned 23/7/15. One Medal roll suggests 2nd Battalion SG. But not clear when this refers to.

Address 1922 is in Hampstead. Number of electoral records for man with correct full name. Plus a marriage in 1927 to Aileen Audrey Flood. So possible year of birth is 1889 or thereabouts. TBC.

The is a commercial traveller wth correct full name boarding in Leeds in 1939 DoB. 28/11/88. Aileen Audrey is innBagshot with children, The marriage certificate says manufacturer’s agent. So?

none of this is conclusive. 

Edited 17 March , 2019 by Mark1959

[Michelle Young]

Welcome to the forum. I have edited the title of the thread to that of the soldier in question 

 

Michelle

[HarryBrook]

His career as an officer per the London Gazette:-

 

Gazetted 2nd Lt. into 11th Bn. Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment) 24 July 1915 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29243/supplement/7421

 

Promoted to temp. Lt., W. Riding R. 1 May 1916 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29588/page/4979

 

Lt., to be temp. Capt. whilst holding an appointment on the permanent establishment, Training Reserve, 1 September 1916  https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29776/supplement/9724 heading on page 9725.

 

W. Riding R., from acting Capt. Training Res., to be temp. Lt. (attached) 1 June 1917 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30200/supplement/7563

 

W. Riding R., promoted to temp. Capt. 21 September 1917 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/30370/supplement/11536

 

Date of promotion to temp Capt. corrected to 3 June 1917 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31120/supplement/675

 

Relinquished his commission on completion of service and retained the rank of Capt. 30 Oct. 1920 https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32106/supplement/10584

 

Mentioned in Despatches, service in Italy with 10th Bn. W. Riding R. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31106/supplement/282  heading on page 275.

 

[PRC]

The London Gazette entry for his commission as James Watson Paterson is the Supplement to the edition for the 28th July 1915 and shows him as a 2nd Lieutenant in the 11th Battalion. The Duke of Wellington’s Regiment (West Riding Regiment) with effect from the 24th July 1915.

Source: https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/29243/supplement/7421/data.pdf

 

11th (Reserve) Battalion
Formed in Halifax in November 1914 as Service Battalion of K4 and came under command of 89th Brigade, original 30th Division.
10 April 1915 : became a Reserve Battalion. Moved to Lichfield in July 1915 and went on to Brocton Camp (Cannock Chase) in November 1915.
1 September 1916 : absorbed into the Training Reserve Battalions of 3rd Reserve Brigade.

Source: https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/the-british-infantry-regiments-of-1914-1918/duke-of-wellingtons-west-riding-regiment/

 

The National Archive don’t have any surviving papers in the name of James Watson Paterson, but it does have a Lieutenant James Paterson,  The Duke of Wellington’s (West Riding Regiment)

Reference  WO 374/52545 - http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C722669

 

Unfortunately they are not available online or to download, so it’s a visit to Kew or pay someone to copy, (there are a number of people on this forum who offer that service).

 

A check of the monthly Army list for February 1916, (the first I have to hand after the date of commissioning), shows  a Second Lieutenant J.W Paterson seniority 24th July 1915, on the establishment of the 11th Battalion. 

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[Deborah P]

On ‎17‎/‎03‎/‎2019 at 06:52, Mark1959 said:

His number was 12185. To France 25/5/15. Commissioned 23/7/15. One Medal roll suggests 2nd Battalion SG. But not clear when this refers to.

Address 1922 is in Hampstead. Number of electoral records for man with correct full name. Plus a marriage in 1927 to Aileen Audrey Flood. So possible year of birth is 1889 or thereabouts. TBC.

The is a commercial traveller wth correct full name boarding in Leeds in 1939 DoB. 28/11/88. Aileen Audrey is innBagshot with children, The marriage certificate says manufacturer’s agent. So?

none of this is conclusive. 

thank you for this it is correct as he married Audrey. I wanted to know if he saw active service and if so what battles. Sadly they divorced due to his drinking and he never saw his children. Granny said he was very effected by the war but thought he was an ambulance man. But she was never reliable on these things.

[clk]

Hi Deborah,

 

Findmypast has a record for 12185 Paterson which reads:

 

First name(s); James W

Last name: Paterson

Service number: 12185

Date of Attestation:17.11.1914

Age on Attestation: 25 years, 11 months

Place of Attestation: Edinburgh

Trade on enlistment: commercial traveller

Discharge or becoming Non-Effective

Date: 23.7.1917

Place: London

Cause: With a view to appointment to a Commission

Rank and Character on Discharge

Private. Very good

 

In the index to officers long numbers, he appears to have originally been commissioned to the 11th Battalion, 33rd Regiment of Foot  - i.e. The Duke of Wellington's (West Riding Regiment). The record also shows that he had the post WW1 admin number of P/133904

 

 

Images sourced from the National Archives file WO 338/15/3

 

In an index of files held by the MoD, that would appear to make him the man with the DoB of 28th November 1888. That date would appear to tie back to the man that Mark found in the 1939 Register (post #2).

 

If you'd like to take a £30 gamble, you could get a copy of that (probably heavily weeded) file - see here. Contrary to the general advise shown, I understand that as he was born +110 years ago, there wouldn't be any need to submit a copy death certificate. There is a helpdesk phone number here. 

 

Regards

Chris

[Tunstill's Men]

Hello Deborah

James Watson Paterson served as an officer with 10th Battalion Duke of Wellington's (West Riding) Regiment from July 1917 until he was transferred to  8^th King’s Own Yorkshire Light Infantry  in February 1919.

He saw action with the Battalion during the Third Battle of Ypres in Autumn 1917 and was then transferred to Italy with the Battalion in November 1917, where he remained until the end of the war.

My blog - www.tunstillsmen.blogspot.com - which covers the history of the Battalion day-by-day - has a number of entries about him; you can use the search option to find them. He was especially remembered for having procured some musical instruments for the Battalion Band before leaving for Italy!

The entry for 12th January 1919 has a photo of him from my own collection and there is also a photo of him in the Durham Record Office collections from an album kept by a fellow officer.

I have attached both below.

Hope this is of interest and If you have anything more about him I would be fascinated to know. 

Regards

Bill

[Deborah P]

I am looking for the dispatch From Earl Cavan about Captain James Watson Paterson as stated below in a Roll of Honor book  at The Royal High School Edinburgh.

Does anyone know the battles he was in?

Where can I find the dispatch if it still exists?

 

PATERSON, JAMES WATSON (1902).
Private, Scots Guards, November 1914; 2nd Lieutenant, July 1915 ;
Lieutenant, May 191 6; Captain, July 191 7. Attached Duke of
Wellington's Regiment, July 191 5. Mentioned in Despatches by
General The Earl of Cavan, in Italy, January 1919.

[PRC]

The Despatches originally appeared in the London Gazette, although they have been reprinted elsewhere over the years. The one concerned, published in the second supplement to the London Gazette of the 3rd January 1919 and dated the 6th January, is just a long list of names of those individuals who served under his command between February 26th 1918 and midnight September 14th 1918 "whose distinguished and gallant services and devotion to duty I consider deserving of special mention."

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31106/supplement/275/data.pdf

Paterson is on page 282 - a continuation of a section that starts on page 281 covering the West Riding Regiment. All the entries are shown as 10th Battalion.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31106/supplement/282/data.pdf

 

The same Battalion appears on his Medal Index Card, even though it is only indexed as "12885" James Wateson Paterson, Scots Guard on the National Archive website and "12815" James Wateson Paterson, Scots Guard on Ancestry.

 

On the Long, Long Trail webpage for the Duke of Wellingtons (West Riding) Regiment it doesn't mention any of the Battalions going to Italy. But the 10th Battalion were in the 23rd Division, and that Division definately did.

http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/23rd-division/

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

[sotonmate]

During the period of the Despatch, as quoted by PRC, there was only one action involvong 23 Division, that of the Asiago Plateau on a few days in June 1918.

[helpjpl]

1 hour ago, Deborah P said:

I am looking for the dispatch From Earl Cavan about Captain James Watson Paterson as stated below in a Roll of Honor book  at The Royal High School Edinburgh.

Where can I find the dispatch if it still exists?

 

Forum Member Harry Brook provided information and a link in #4 of your earlier thread:

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/270776-james-watson-paterson/

 

1.  Supplement to The London Gazette, 03 January 1919:

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/31106/supplement/275

                        

2.  West Riding Regiment, Paterson, T./Capt. J.W., 10th Bn.  - page 282:

 

JP

Edited 2 January , 2020 by helpjpl

[Michelle Young]

I’ve merged your recent thread with a previous thread to avoid repetition of answers 

Michelle 

[Kimberley John Lindsay]

Dear All, Bill and JP,

Brilliant researching. Well done!

Kindest regards,

Kim.

[Deborah P]

Thank you all so much. Super fast info!

Thank you to Tunstill'sl man I now have a photo of my grandfather. Can you tell me the name of the officer who had the picture I would like to get a copy from the original.

Noone in our family knew him and we had no photos. I would like to find out where he lived after he divorced  and if he had another family and where he died. I have looked but come up blank.

My cousin will be delighted with all of this info.

I aim to put something together to send to his school archive. So anymore info on medals and battles is gratefully received.

Thank you all so much!

[JMB1943]

On 02/01/2020 at 20:08, Deborah P said:

.

Noone in our family knew him and we had no photos. I would like to find out where he lived after he divorced  and if he had another family and where he died. I have looked but come up blank.

 

Deborah,

https://www.freebmd.org.uk/

 

Lists 17 marriages in the period 1925-90, including to FLOOD in 1927.

Lists  6 deaths in the the period 1925-90 for a James W. Paterson, including one in Leeds in Q4 1956, at age 68.

However, age is usually provided by the registrant and may only be a guess!

Good Luck with your search.

Regards,

JMB

 

Edited 5 January , 2020 by JMB1943
correct 197 to 1927

[PRC]

On 03/01/2020 at 01:08, Deborah P said:

I would like to find out where he lived after he divorced  and if he had another family and where he died. I have looked but come up blank.

 

On 28/03/2019 at 13:55, clk said:

n an index of files held by the MoD, that would appear to make him the man with the DoB of 28th November 1888. That date would appear to tie back to the man that Mark found in the 1939 Register (post #2).

 

If you'd like to take a £30 gamble, you could get a copy of that (probably heavily weeded) file - see here. Contrary to the general advise shown, I understand that as he was born +110 years ago, there wouldn't be any need to submit a copy death certificate. There is a helpdesk phone number here. 

 

 

133904 Captain James Watson Paterson appears to have been given a wartime commission in the Royal Army Ordnance Corps effective 10th June 1940 with the rank of Lieutenant.

The notification is in the Supplement to the London Gazette dated 19th July 1940. https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/34899/supplement/4424/data.pdf

The Great War Officers Service Records for Lieutenant James Paterson Duke of Wellingtons Regiment isn't catalogued by the National Archive as having any WW2 content so may relate to another man, or have become "orphaned".

 

If you believe that is the right date of birth and now we know that the JW stands for James Watson, then the MoD route might give you the answers you are looking for - if nothing else it should give a contact address on discharge.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter