GraemeClarke Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) Hi, Just found this debate. All I can add is that there is nothing in the local Walsall newspapers regarding him. His mother predeceased him in 1910. He is commemorated on the St. Patrick's Church RoH, Walsall (which does not now exist). Regards, Graeme Edited 2 January , 2020 by GraemeClarke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: I can't actually bring him up in the BMA's own search page. I'll find out when the PDF arrives. Thanks DBS Here is Dr Mackay's obituary from the BMJ 14 Dec 1964 As obviously not an O & G case - abdominal matters do seem a possibility for 'Osborne' / Dolan [unless neurasthenia related] - we really do need that DC Edited 2 January , 2020 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 54 minutes ago, GraemeClarke said: He is commemorated on the St. Patrick's Church RoH, Walsall (which does not now exist). Thanks for looking at the papers GC I'm guessing it's the church that has gone but ... = Does the RoH still exist? - and if so, where? = Under which surname? = Any photos/images of the RoH? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GraemeClarke Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 Hi He is on the Walsall RoH (attached). St. Patrick's Church has indeed been replaced. The roll was placed in the Walsall Peace Book. I've been to the church but got blank stares when I asked about a RoH. (Third row towards the top). Both in mane of Dolan. Regards, Graeme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 36 minutes ago, GraemeClarke said: He is on the Walsall RoH (attached). Etc. ... Many thanks for your local knowledge. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 7 hours ago, charlie962 said: ALIAS- when did James first adopt this ? His MIC, Hospital Admission use Osborne (no mention of it being alias ?) His Soldiers Effects names alias Dolan and identifies brother Michael C as the beneficiary (but not sole legatee) entries dated 1918 CWGC have the alias and names/address of parents. Note headstone has brother's dedication Parents When did they die ? There were other sons/daughter (see census returns) Possible previous enlistment ? No obvious linked prev service to 1915 (see note by craig *post12) There's a 1908 (7/5 Regular) Service record for a James Dolan, born 1885,Walsall to Yorks&Lancs. Discharged same year with Ignominy. The sort of record that would make a man change his name. But he gives father as Thomas Dolan and brother Martin. So probably not him but needs double checking. Do these people exist ? edited The effects register was created Jan 1918 as Osborne - the Dolan was added afterwards. If you look at the pen then the Dolan seems to have been added in the same as the details of the Nok. These seem to have been added around the time of the payment in July 1918. So somewhere between Jan and July 1918 the alias became known. The MIC also shows annotations as far forward as 1967 so someone was looking the records up to then (as well as in 64 and 65). Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 2 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: So somewhere between Jan and July 1918 the alias became known. I haven't been able to sight the ER - thank you for looking in detail and interpreting. :-) M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 No sign of a London Gazette unclaimed effects entry so there seems to have been no major issues in finding the relatives - I suspect that they knew what he was serving as and that it was something personal to him (I'd still suspect earlier service somewhere as yet unknown). Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) 7 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: No sign of a London Gazette unclaimed effects entry so there seems to have been no major issues in finding the relatives Again your insight is informative on ER 7 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: I suspect that they knew what he was serving as and that it was something personal to him Who do you think is the "they" is? - Army or relatives? And as for your pensions expertise - any ideas why not found anything (yet?)? If relatives were getting his effects & Gratuity then surely a pension claim would seem on the cards. Edit: of course - no pension claim = not dependant on him! Doh!!! Edited 2 January , 2020 by Matlock1418 addit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: I suspect that they knew what he was serving It seems probable his parents were dead (his Mother 1910 but his father ?) and as I noted it was his brother Michael Charles Dolan who dealt with matters- effects and CWGC. But presumably M C Dolan never met Dr Mackay. Note MC Dolan seems to have used just the name Charles at times I have revised my notes (craig- you quote the revised, thank goodness) on the James Dolan of Walsall with the 1908 Enlistment Record - see post35 The sort of bad record that would make a man adopt an alias; Unfortunately the NoK don't fit. But even on that attestation he couldn't provide info on his previous service- reference not forthcoming- so it is always possible he was fibbing about the NoK ? Charlie Edited 2 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 3 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Who do you think is the "they" is? - Army or relatives? The relatives - although it could be simply be that he gave an address to the army that linked back and the relatives got some correspondence and figured out who he was. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ss002d6252 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 8 hours ago, charlie962 said: James Dolan was born 2/8/1883 of Catholic parents Michael and Elizabeth Dolan (nee Stackhouse) *Post24 The CWGC records state he was 39 in 1917 so that would mean he was born 1878 - why would he add 5 years to his age (usually the opposite) ? If he was born 1883 then, if he had earlier service as a regular, it would typically be from age 18 - so circa 1901 (if the 1883 date is right). This would mean put him right between the census but out of commitment by 1913, unless he had chosen to extend. Craig Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 18 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: The CWGC records state he was 39 in 1917 so that would mean he was born 1878 - why would he add 5 years to his age (usually the opposite) ? I suspect it is a transcription error by CWGC - should be 34 not 39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 16 minutes ago, ss002d6252 said: why would he add 5 years to his age (usually the opposite) ? Don't know how my next question helps us in this particular case - but for general knowledge ... Would adding years make you more likely to get posted to a HS unit rather than to AS and the front & fighting? Might have to serve but wish to dodge the bullets & shells etc. - just a general enquiry/thought ??? 1 minute ago, charlie962 said: I suspect it is a transcription error by CWGC - should be 34 not 39 Plausible - such have been known before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 18 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Don't know how my next question helps us in this particular case - but for general knowledge ... Would adding years make you more likely to get posted to a HS unit rather than to AS and the front & fighting? Might have to serve but wish to dodge the bullets & shells etc. - just a general enquiry/thought ??? In Dolan's case it would not be relevant because he was a 1915 volunteer so not trying to avoid anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 1 hour ago, charlie962 said: In Dolan's case it would not be relevant because he was a 1915 volunteer so not trying to avoid anything. Was just a general enquiry and admittedly a bit of an aside - there were of course those very persuasive types, with birds' white plumage to avoid by volunteering and before conscription and its emphasis on age and age groups kicked in with their close(r) attentions to such details. Of course at the moment we can still only speculate on 'Osborne' / Dolan and try more research! Back to our man and his alias mystery. Now where next? - Have we anything more from Sheffield? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC78 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 3 hours ago, charlie962 said: I suspect it is a transcription error by CWGC - should be 34 not 39 2 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Plausible - such have been known before. The death register gives his age as 40 though, assuming he's the James Osborne registered at Ormskirk. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 15 minutes ago, PaulC78 said: The death register gives his age as 40 though, assuming he's the James Osborne registered at Ormskirk. Yes, my find and an assumption, but I think geographically a fair bet. We really do need that DC to check. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 Just a recap that the age of 39 in 1917 appears on CWGC records and perhaps the death cert (if the Ormskirk one is him,). Also on CWGC are the names of his parents (probably supplied by James's brother Michael Charles Dolan) James's baptismal record showing his true birth date and quoting his parent's names tells us that he was definitely born 1883. It is a strange coincidence that it is Michael Charles who was 39 at the time of James' death. All this mystery is what makes it interesting. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 15 hours ago, ss002d6252 said: The MIC also shows annotations as far forward as 1967 so someone was looking the records up to then (as well as in 64 and 65). An interesting point. Yes there would have been searches in 1964 but the subsequent ones may mean that there was outside interest as a result of newspaper publicity and, who knows, perhaps representatives of James were found and the inheritance paid ? As I said above, the CWGC Rolls list James under Osborne and Dolan with cross refs. Anyone experienced who was researching a soldier died would know they could access them at a major library or make enquiry direct to CWGC. Perhaps we should ask CWGC if they have a record or evidence of any such enquiry ? -extracts courtesy CWGC Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 50 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Also on CWGC are the names of his parents (probably supplied by James's brother Michael Charles Dolan) Seems very likely as M.C. Dolan and the address are on the CWGC Headstone document page 2 - under Dolan [for the potentially proposed personal "Oh take me to thy sacred heart" inscription bill no doubtl!] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC78 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 Had a quick look in Southport Library this morning and found the following from 4 May 1964, not sure if it adds anything to the above though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 Thanks. All helps. It is a little more precise because it uses quotation marks. But doesn't answer the big questions ! Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 (edited) 20 minutes ago, PaulC78 said: Had a quick look in Southport Library Another thought- long shot- the Solicitors- do they still exist in some form ? Would they have anything? Yes they exist today as Cockshott Peck Lewis ! Edited 3 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 3 January , 2020 Share Posted 3 January , 2020 54 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Would they have anything? Possibly. Will they tell you what they have? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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