Matlock1418 Posted 1 January , 2020 Share Posted 1 January , 2020 1 minute ago, charlie962 said: 1901 Census Pleck Rd, with his parents ; Aged 18. Cycle Brazing Who is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 1 January , 2020 Share Posted 1 January , 2020 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Matlock1418 said: Who is? James Dolan Edited 1 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 January , 2020 Share Posted 1 January , 2020 (edited) Dr William Alexander Mackay d.1963 - perhaps has a relevant obituary - can't read it because it seems behind a paywall - I wonder what his field was? And if relevant to James Dolan ??? Obituary - The BMJ https://www.bmj.com › content › 1537.full.pdf ..... William Alexander Mackay was born on March 10, 1872. He graduated M.B. ... the Southport Medical Society made him an honorary life member. Maintaining ... Seems we need another doctor - a member of the BMA / subscriber to BMJ to have a look for us ... in hope ... Edited 2 January , 2020 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 1 January , 2020 Share Posted 1 January , 2020 (edited) This obit is Courtesy Findmypast and confirms the Service Number; Thanks for the prompt, Matlock. Edited 1 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 January , 2020 Share Posted 1 January , 2020 (edited) 49 minutes ago, charlie962 said: This obit in Courtesy Findmypast Confirms the Service Number; Yes 22135, but also serves up a couple of interesting curved balls: "Dr Mackay came to live in Southport after the first world war" and later "Dr Mackay moved to Southport from Glasgow about the turn of the century" = ?? The former would seem to rule out contact with 'Osborne' whereas the latter would not [if early c20th]. "Osborne came from Sheffield ... ... ... English Steel" = ?? - I suppose steel cycle brazing in Walsall 1901 and later steel working in Sheffield is quite possible - so should the hunt look at Sheffield? Edited 1 January , 2020 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 1 January , 2020 Share Posted 1 January , 2020 1 minute ago, Matlock1418 said: so should the hunt look at Sheffield? A number of addresses and presumably all under Osborne as the paper makes no mention of Dolan. Wonder why they didn't check CWGC register- which has Ledger entries under both Dolan and Osborne ? Over to you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 1 January , 2020 Share Posted 1 January , 2020 (edited) Yes all 'Osborne' Can't explain the solicitors not referring to any contact, if they had any, with CWGC = ??? Wonder how CWGC got both names? - Possibly from now WW2 destroyed SR etc. and/or NoK Verification Forms - which were pulped for the WW2 war effort! Still a mystery - running from something/someone in Sheffield perhaps??? Just speculating [Edit: a bit too wildly I am beginning to think] And remember he was in KOYLI [I know that is not a dead cert for confirming Sheffield, but ...] Edit: or perhaps earlier running from something/someone in Walsall and into an alias of 'Osborne' in Sheffield I suppose - one might perhaps even strongly deduce that from Mrs Barrett knowing him by that name when at Hadfields Ltd, Sheffield - and then it seems keeping on with 'Osborne' into the Army. Edited 1 January , 2020 by Matlock1418 addit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
familyhistoryman Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 6 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: WFA access to Pension Cards is playing up today (won't open correctly) but despite all searches (which seem to be working well) I cannot find a James/John Dolan or a James/John Osborne As for Doctor William Alexander Mackay - there is a MIC for such a named RAMC officer (Lt.) with a Southport address https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/D3832573 but on rear so you will have to view through another source not TNA = applied for his medal 1923 and at 46 Hoghton St, Southport = BWM for India. Same officer / doctor?? Another mystery to me! Dr William Alexander Mackay was at the Hoghton address in 1911 and 1939. He married Gertrude Jane Edwards at Southport in 1905. When the 1911 census was taken Gertrude was a patient in a nursing home in London by which time she had no children. She died at Southport in 1949 and there she left a will. As far as I can see the Mackay did not have any children and I wonder if Osborne/Dolan was a patient Dr Mackay cared for and took him under his wing? I would think it might be worth getting copies of the Wills Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) 5 hours ago, familyhistoryman said: Dr William Alexander Mackay was at the Hoghton address in 1911 Presumably taken from the 1911 Census - Seems to give a bit more weight to the 1964 newspaper's reporting "Dr Mackay moved to Southport from Glasgow about the turn of the century" and not after the war so more likely it seems he might have met 'Osborne'/ Dolan in Southport during the war 5 hours ago, familyhistoryman said: I would think it might be worth getting copies of the Wills Couldn't find a Soldier's Will for 'Osborne' / Dolan #22135 for d.o.d. 19/11/1917, so ... ??? Certainly I would think Dr Mackay's would be in some detail - Found this, and ordered Wonder who the Mackays are - one suspects his brother and nephews as per newspaper. Also found his wife's 1949 probate - She was also, at that date of 2 Fisher Drive, Southport so looks like Dr Mackay stayed in 2 Fisher Drive for the rest of his life Also seems we could probably do with a sighting of a Death Certificate for 'Osborne' / Dolan to find cause of death etc. I think probably: OSBORNE, JAMES 40 GRO Reference: 1917 D Quarter in ORMSKIRK Volume 08B Page 926 Edited 2 January , 2020 by Matlock1418 addition Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) I am trying to recap our 34 posts so far and add some question plus references to earlier posts. re James Dolan alias James Osborne 22135 KOYLI James Dolan was born 2/8/1883 of Catholic parents Michael and Elizabeth Dolan (nee Stackhouse) *Post24 1891 Census ......Dolan, aged 6, Navigation?St Walsall *post14 and 21 1901 Census ......Dolan , aged 18 PleckRd Walsall. Cycle Brazing *post25 1911 Census ???? 1915 Enlisted (craig's calc) - Osborne *post7 and 8 Attested Attercliffe, Sheffield (SDGW) Overseas 30/12/15 (MIC) Served in France with 10thBn KOYLI 1916 Sick Neurasthenia (per Hospital Admissions)- Osborne *post9 1917 Died Southport Infirmary of ... Pension Ledger- there is a card- what does it add new ? edit-(now checked, no card for him) Death Certificate- need a copy - see link per *post34 Cause of Death ? Certified by whom ? Would there have been an inquest ? Dr Mackay's Will- need a copy edit- matlock applying for it .see post37 Actual wording of legacy ? Age related clause- why ? Dr MacKay's area of work during the war ? Was Dr Mackay at Southport infirmary when James died? The obvious question- could James's death be linked to 'work' done by Dr Mackay ? ALIAS- when did James first adopt this ? His MIC, Hospital Admission use Osborne (no mention of it being alias ?) His Soldiers Effects names alias Dolan and identifies brother Michael C as the beneficiary (but not sole legatee) entries dated 1918 CWGC have the alias and names/address of parents. Note headstone has brother's dedication Parents When did they die ? There were other sons/daughter (see census returns) Possible previous enlistment ? No obvious linked prev service to 1915 (see note by craig *post12) There's a 1908 (7/5 Regular) Service record for a James Dolan, born 1885,Walsall to Yorks&Lancs. Discharged same year with Ignominy. The sort of record that would make a man change his name. But he gives father as Thomas Dolan and brother Martin. So probably not him but needs double checking. Do these people exist ? edited Sheffield What do the Sheffield addresses in newspaper clippings lead to ? Osborne or Dolan? Note SDGW says James Osborne attested at Attercliffe, Sheffield (this would be 1915) Ancestry tree for Dolan or Osborne ? Doctor Mackay Lt RAMC with Southport address per MIC *post13 Who was he ? -Census 1911, 1939 Southport. Married 1905. see *post33 and 34 Does BMJ obit add anything to Newspaper article ? see *post28 and 29 The Legacy There is no mention of the name Dolan ?? Apparantly solicitors checked for Army Records. Why not CWGC ?? What is such a sum 10k worth today ? edit- c 200k per *post36 Was it given to Charity ? Do the firm of Solicitors still exist ? Brother Michael Charles Dolan born 15/5/1887 *post17 On family census until...... Census 1911.......... His name on Effects as the only beneficiary (but not as 'sole legatee') and on Headstone sentiment On 1939 Register Walsall with a son James Dolan born 17/8/17 *post17 Clearly the brother Michael Charles Dolan was aware of his brother's death and alias as he seems to have organised CWGC detail and is the Effects beneficiary. As the obvious representative he and his sister/other brother or their descendants should have benefited from the bequest; The age clause in Dr Mackay's will reads to me (reading the newspaper report) that it was a bequest that was in his thoughts when he himself was dying ? Date of Mackay's will will clarify. I am assuming that Dolan's alias and the Dr Mackay bequest are unrelated events. It is just that the former confounded the latter. Medical expertise- can I draw attention to this thread of @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr charlie Edited 2 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 21 minutes ago, charlie962 said: What is such a sum 10k worth today ? About £200K 22 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Medical expertise- can I draw attention to this thread of @Dai Bach y Sowldiwr possibly access to BMA/BMJ obituary ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 24 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Dr Mackay's Will- need a copy ordered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 A useful little sum; I have edited my post 35, which I will continue to do as you and others unearth little snippets. charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
helpjpl Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 William Alexander Mackay - The Medical Directory 1940: JP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) 5th (Mhow) Division According to Wiki = "The Division remained in India on internal security duties during World War 1, but some of its units were transferred to serve with other formations" India would match Dr Mackay's MIC for his BWM So, ...? Doesn't rule out 1917 UK service though Obs & Gynae and like seems ruled out for 'Osborne' / Dolan, but the other subjects ...?? Edited 2 January , 2020 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) 15 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Seems we need another doctor - a member of the BMA / subscriber to BMJ to have a look OK. Looking. 15 hours ago, Matlock1418 said: Obituary - The BMJ https://www.bmj.com › content › 1537.full.pdf Can't see him in that link. I've got a Coyle, Dempsey & Shirlaw. Ah right. That's only the front page. I don't have a sub. I'll pass the request on to someone who has. Edit: Request Passed on. Edited 2 January , 2020 by Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: Can't see him in that link. Yep, wierd - looks like the right sort of place - got that off a web search but I then tried for later pages - but could not get beyond the paywall as not BMA/BMJ Edited 2 January , 2020 by Matlock1418 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 (edited) 1911 census for 159 Ripon st, Attercliffe (address in clipping) has Bunting family with 3 lodgers. No 'Mrs Barrett' and no James Osborne Edited 2 January , 2020 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dai Bach y Sowldiwr Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 I can't actually bring him up in the BMA's own search page. I'll find out when the PDF arrives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 5 minutes ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said: I'll find out when the PDF arrives. PDF, that's when the paywall hit. Thanks for passing on our enquiry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Higgs Posted 2 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2020 I returned today to the cemetery where I took my original photograph (incidentally its Duke Street Cemetery in Southport)….and found 2 more similar CWG's stones,one of which I knew about and hadn't photographed before and another one I found while "exploring"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 7 minutes ago, Driver Higgs said: ….and found 2 more similar CWG's Its your thread but can I suggest that we keep focus on Dolan/Osborne ? Alias could be because they wanted to hide their past- previous civil or military problems, they didn't want their family to know- eg under age- or even over age, wanted to get away from the wife ... We haven't cracked Dolan/Osborne yet ! Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Driver Higgs Posted 2 January , 2020 Author Share Posted 2 January , 2020 3 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Its your thread but can I suggest that we keep focus on Dolan/Osborne ? Alias could be because they wanted to hide their past- previous civil or military problems, they didn't want their family to know- eg under age- or even over age, wanted to get away from the wife ... We haven't cracked Dolan/Osborne yet ! Charlie I quite agree....the Dolan/Osbourne enigma takes priority....I was just showing that there are other CWG's that are similar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 3 minutes ago, Driver Higgs said: Dolan/Osbourne enigma takes priority Thanks for making our life a wee bit simpler in this thread ;-) we are enjoying it. Have sent you a PM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matlock1418 Posted 2 January , 2020 Share Posted 2 January , 2020 12 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Alias could be because they wanted to hide their past- previous civil or military problems Meant to raise this earlier - but forgot until just reminded. Has anyone checked police records for Dolan? Could be wanting to escape from a spot of bother in Walsall by setting up a new name/life in Sheffield = ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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