Deckhands John & David Sutherland

[PaulC78]

I found the following in the pension records while looking for someone else:

 

 

 

The date of death for John Sutherland looks to me like 6 July 1918, which I assume is a mistake given that the Strathgarry was lost on that date in 1915. I'm struggling to find any further information on either man, though I've only done a quick search. As far as I can tell the Strathgarry was in use by the Royal Navy and was lost following a collision with HMS Monarch, so I assume any crew lost would be elligible for commemoration?

[RaySearching]

1 hour ago, PaulC78 said:

I assume any crew lost would be elligible for commemoration?

 

No / 

Mercantile marines were civilians,  if their deaths were not attributable to an act of war or enemy action then they would not qualify to be commemorated by the cwgc

as an example   in the case of  John Sutherland, he perished when the trawler he was serving on was sunk due to an accidental collision with the battleship Monarch

 

In other circumstances mercantile marines may qualify 

 

Ray

[PaulC78]

They wouldn't necessarily be Mercantile Marine though, would they? Could also have been Royal Naval Reserve. Can't find a service record in either case though.

 

I though the criteria for Mercantile Marine was "they had to die both on duty and of a war cause or a cause due to an increased threat brought on by war" (quoting Terry Denham from on old topic). Surely collidig with a battleship would fit that definition?

[little bob]

 David Sutherland  DA19160  was born 31May 1899.  National Archives BT377/7/56686. Unable to find John Sutherland.

 

Bob

[rolt968]

A number of oddments:

HMT Strathgarry:

http://www.scapaflowwrecks.com/wrecks/other/strathgarry.php

I suspect that the date on the top card has been mis-transcribed.

John is listed on the Avoch War Memorial, but not David (at least not as a seaman).

https://www.iwm.org.uk/memorials/item/memorial/44566

John was born about 1897/1898. (1901 census - ancestry)

RM

 

HMT Erillus seems to have survived the war.

Edited 30 December , 2019 by rolt968

[rolt968]

Having now had time to read various sources.

There are some interesting points about HMT Glengarry and John Sutherland's death:

According to the scapaflow wrecks site.(can anyone find a better source, please?) there was only one casualty - presumably John Sutherland. 

Strathgarry was requisitioned in June 1915 and converted to a BDV (Toghill - who incidentally gets the date of loss wrong). It's tempting to wonder if the the paperwork for the crew hadn't caught up by the time of John Sutherland's death.

 

RM

[KizmeRD]

If John Sutherland was on a trawler being used as a naval auxilliary (in this case on boom defence duties), then at the very least (assuming that he was not an actual RNR rating) he would have been serving under a so called T.124 agreement (copies held at Kew). This would have made him subject to the Naval Discipline Act and any death in service would meet the criteria for a CWGC commemoration.

Michael

[rolt968]

3 hours ago, KizmeRD said:

If John Sutherland was on a trawler being used as a naval auxilliary (in this case on boom defence duties), then at the very least (assuming that he was not an actual RNR rating) he would have been serving under a so called T.124 agreement (copies held at Kew). This would have made him subject to the Naval Discipline Act and any death in service would meet the criteria for a CWGC commemoration.

Michael

 

Thanks Michael

 

I had wondered about a T124 agreement (I am thinking about it in another context) but don't really know enough about it. I agree he would meet the CWGC criteria - but finding evidence will be tricky - not least of his death. I had hoped there might be an Orkney death certificate but there isn't.

 

(I know they are frequently inaccurate - but the war memorial inscription is interesting.

[PaulC78]

Have looked up the RNR records for David Sutherland, they don't seem to mention the Errilus but there was a continuous record of service going beyong WW2.

 

John is still eluding me, though a census record indicates he was born at Avoch around 1898.

[horatio2]

17 minutes ago, PaulC78 said:

they don't seem to mention the Errilus

I see that his DA record places him in HMS HECLA (at Buncrana) from 22 May 1918. ERILLUS was transferred to HECLA from HMS IDAHO on 18 Jul 1918.

Looking at his previous draft, although hard to read online, It believe his RNR record may actually show him in the trawler STRATHLUI.

 

This trawler was based on HECLA from 21 Oct 1917 and was transferred to HMS IMPLACABLE (probably at Lerwick) on 25 Apr 1918 - this date ties in with the move shown in his RNR record. STRATHLUI was then transferred back to HECLA on 22 May 1918 - again matching the movement date in his record,

 

It is possible that later in 1918, when both trawlers were based at Buncrana, he transferred from STRATHLUI to ERILLUS. If so, this was not placed in his RNR record. (as HECLA (ERILLUS)). The discrepancy between the Dependant's Pension card and the RNR record cannot be explained.