The Kipling Family

[kenf48]

3 hours ago, Dai Bach y Sowldiwr said:

I don't think so, here is the OP image, cropped:

 

Tbh I wish it was but I’ve tried all sorts to enhance it without success I’ve had a good look round but can’t find any examples of Regimental badge on such a pin.  A look at the original photo might give better resolution.

 

Ken

[Dai Bach y Sowldiwr]

19 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

A look at the original photo might give better resolution.

Yes I agree.

[Buelligan]

Another possibility is Rupert Grayson, although he too was an Irish Guardsman (the observations already made about uniform could apply to him too, I imagine).  He apparently frequently visited Bateman's, with John and after John's death (he was injured by the same shell that killed JK).  Physically, I think, he looks quite like the man in the OP.

 

http://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/rg_nativity1.htm

 

Though Beith looks an excellent candidate too.  As does Langrishe.  Too many fellows with long bent noses and dark moustaches.

[Tonie and Valmai Holt]

Just seen the interesting debate about the mystery soldier in the Kipling family photo.  We agree it's definitely not John and it's not Elsie's husband to be (in a marriage blanche) George Bambridge.  Next thought it might be Rupert Grayson, a great friend of John's and a frequent visitor to Batemans, or Kipling's nephew Oliver Baldwin. However, as already spotted, the mystery man wears the rank insignia of a Colonel or above and Rupert and the others were still only Lts. So could it possibly be Irish Guards Lt Col the Hon Lesley Butler, who commanded the attack of 27 Sept 1915 and who was so intimately involved in Rudyard's search for John's body? Unfortunately we cannot find a photo of him in uniform at that age.

[Muerrisch]

John was emphatically not a lieutenant.

The forum established that beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

Edit:

The Forum's detective work is at:

 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/232064-cwgc-confirms-that-john-kipling-is-buried-in-the-correct-grave/?tab=comments#comment-2311707

 

The article that arose from it was published on Stand To!. I can email a copy if wanted.

Edited 14 July , 2020 by Muerrisch
addendum

[Gareth Davies]

3 hours ago, Tonie and Valmai Holt said:

Just seen the interesting debate about the mystery soldier in the Kipling family photo.  We agree it's definitely not John and it's not Elsie's husband to be (in a marriage blanche) George Bambridge.  Next thought it might be Rupert Grayson, a great friend of John's and a frequent visitor to Batemans, or Kipling's nephew Oliver Baldwin. However, as already spotted, the mystery man wears the rank insignia of a Colonel or above and Rupert and the others were still only Lts. So could it possibly be Irish Guards Lt Col the Hon Lesley Butler, who commanded the attack of 27 Sept 1915 and who was so intimately involved in Rudyard's search for John's body? Unfortunately we cannot find a photo of him in uniform at that age.

 

If you can see his rank insignia you have better eyes than me. I don't think from a B&W photo we can work out exactly what colour of gorget he is wearing. But thank you for the suggestions, I will have a look. 

 

 

1 hour ago, Muerrisch said:

John was emphatically not a lieutenant.

The forum established that beyond any reasonable doubt.

 

Edit:

The Forum's detective work is at:

 

https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/232064-cwgc-confirms-that-john-kipling-is-buried-in-the-correct-grave/?tab=comments#comment-2311707

 

The article that arose from it was published on Stand To!. I can email a copy if wanted.

 

My post #38 has stood the test of time David.

[Tonie and Valmai Holt]

Couldn't agree more about John's 2nd Lt rank - as we strongly and repeatedly described in My Boy Jack? Yes, we read your article in Stand To with admiration for the clinical and factual examination of the Parkers' claims and your conclusion.

Perhaps we were a bit loose in our previous post in describing all the potential candidates for the 'mystery man' as 'Lts' - much as did the  photo of the Officers of the 2nd Battalion at Warley, June 1915.  In it J. Kipling, W. Clifford,T Packenham-Law and R. Grayson, were all described as 'Lt' below the photo. As you showed in your article, however, Packenham-Law, Kipling and Grayson were described as '2nd Lt' by Lt Col L. Butler.

[Muerrisch]

7 minutes ago, Tonie and Valmai Holt said:

Couldn't agree more about John's 2nd Lt rank - as we strongly and repeatedly described in My Boy Jack? Yes, we read your article in Stand To with admiration for the clinical and factual examination of the Parkers' claims and your conclusion.

Perhaps we were a bit loose in our previous post in describing all the potential candidates for the 'mystery man' as 'Lts' - much as did the  photo of the Officers of the 2nd Battalion at Warley, June 1915.  In it J. Kipling, W. Clifford,T Packenham-Law and R. Grayson, were all described as 'Lt' below the photo. As you showed in your article, however, Packenham-Law, Kipling and Grayson were described as '2nd Lt' by Lt Col L. Butler.

Many thanks. Your praise is very highly valued. The article was a team effort, I put the pieces together.

[Guest]

Just as a small distraction from the current debate-and given the title of the thread=  Kipling thought highly of his children and the financial settlement he made for them is coming up for auction later in January 2021 in Exeter:

 

 

 

     But to change to the subject of identification-and go at it a different way:  Is the building in the background "Batemans"????   If so- I cannot see mention of it so far- then Batemans holds Kipling's Visitors Book.  Surely that would narrow it down a bit???    This from NT about the book:

 

And who knows just how many people have rung that bell in the past as Bateman’s was clearly a conveyor belt of visitors. Between 15 September 1902 and 6 January 1936, Kipling kept his own detailed list of visitors and there are many, many well-known names to be found in it. This is on display in the house’s Exhibition Room and the staff at Bateman’s very cleverly picks out a ‘visitor of the month’. During my visit, this was Ernest Shackleton and the book is open at the relevant page. However, the highlight of the visitor’s book is the F.I.P. annotations here and there, which designate which visitors ‘fell in pond’! On the Shackleton page, the only victim of the pond was Kipling’s own mother who F.I.P. at about 6.30 pm on August 4th. Although none of my group F.I.P. during our visit, there were a few threats to P.I.P., thankfully not carried out. (PS: That means ‘push in pond’, just in case anyone is putting a different slant on those initials!)

 

[Just in case things get really, really desperate, then I will pitch in and say the man in the pic. is not Sir Ernest Shackleton]

 

    Might I also suggest that the photograph is comfortably postwar?  Even at the end of the war Kipling was only 53- and Mrs K was 56.  The Kipling in the photograph is far too old for a Great War pic- Theere are plenty fo dated pics. of K in the Great War era and beyond and our pic is not right fo rthe Great War years- eg-from the NPG site: (From the early Twenties)

 

Edited 2 January , 2021 by Guest

[kenf48]

 But to change to the subject of identification-and go at it a different way:  Is the building in the background "Batemans"????   If so- I cannot see mention of it so far- then Batemans holds Kipling's Visitors Book.  Surely that would narrow it down a bit??? 

 

Post 1 the photograph attribution originally came from Bateman's. which of course is currently in Tier 4 and closed

[Guest]

21 minutes ago, kenf48 said:

 

Post 1 the photograph attribution originally came from Bateman's. which of course is currently in Tier 4 and closed

 

    Ken-Exactly so. Which means the answer should be there for the taking by National Trust staff-even if closed, then Batemans may well be staffed and it might give someone a little exercise to do. I thought this might be straightforward as being "14-18" but I think now,given the aged Mr and Mrs Kipling , the trawl may be extended beyond 1918.