CWGC headstone spacing

[Matlock1418]

Back in an earlier thread The Unknown Soldiers - Must See Television it was noted that the three recently recovered remains were buried in three coffins with spaced headstones in the programme - but a short while later the headstones were photographed all bunched up/abutting

 

Chaz illustrated on 30 October 2019

"on the day and a few weeks later

 

The practicalities of a big pit for ceremonials are accepted, but ... the incongruity with the other headstones in the cemetery is clear

 

The CWGC practice and rational was questioned especially the later bunching of headstones for these men was queried.

It was suggested this was CWGC practice for co-mingled remains

 

 HolymolyRE replied on 14 November 2019

 

  On 14/11/2019 at 22:18, Matlock1418 said:

So why headstones bunched with an unknown? 

Sorry, (and not trying to be arsey) that is CWGC practice if they cannot ID all remains....aka comingled. 

 

My not so helpful reply from CWGC when I asked is below. 

"Hi Andrew

 There are a few answers to the butted up headstones:

1. There wasn’t a lot of available space so burials had to be very close together.
2. It was a quick battlefield burial so a trench was quickly dug and the bodies were placed very close together.
3. Remains are comingled (possibly very comingled or just a little), you often find this with tank and aircraft crews.

 In recent burials we would also put headstones close together if all the others in the cemetery were.

Regards

Steve"

The thread was locked by moderators a while later.

 

However ... I again have to question why necessary bunching in the case of the three sets of remains found and covered in the programme, even if comingled - and notably the last paragraph from CWGC's reply "In recent burials we would also put headstones close together if all the others in the cemetery were"

 

There appeared to be plenty of space for spaced headstones and other headstones in the same cemetery were spaced.

 

As for IWGC/CWGC policy/practice it certainly hasn't always been that way for comingled remains as many COG-BR from the 1930's show [one example below] - 2 sets of intermingled remains = one coffin and yet 2 grave spaces allowed [and presumably 2 spaced headstones as it was a very well planned/laid out largely post-war cemetery https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/2103985/canadian-cemetery-no.2,-neuville-st.-vaast - If anyone knows/has photographs that are different then please let me know and my theory will be refuted!]

So why not now and why are CWGC not being more transparent in their current headstone policy/procedure/practice? - In general and perhaps in these cases in particular

Surely CWGC could just easily produce a document and refer to 'policy/practice x' and 'paragraph y' and all would be transparently explained - yet they do not = ???

I hope a CWGC explanation can be forthcoming for the education of my, and perhaps other GWF pals', curiosity

In hope ...

 

 

[chaz]

as the culprit for the pictures,

1. There wasn’t a lot of available space so burials had to be very close together.  cemetery had plenty of room, hence starting a new row and a big pit.
2. It was a quick battlefield burial so a trench was quickly dug and the bodies were placed very close together. cemetery
3. Remains are comingled (possibly very comingled or just a little), you often find this with tank and aircraft crews.  the 'remains' turned up in three separate coffins 

 In recent burials we would also put headstones close together if all the others in the cemetery were. not many if any

 

still  cant see why, as others had replied it was a big hole in the ground so plenty of room to space them i line with other rows.

[Matlock1418]

The following from I/CWGC archives is informative about exhumations and re-burials - "Revised Instructions" - back in time of course

http://archive.cwgc.org/GetMultimedia.ashx?db=Catalog&type=default&fname=CWGC_1_1_5_27+(WG+1294+PT+2)+part+2.pdf 

The first page [excluding the file cover] includes:

"The remains are placed in canvas, the men handling them wearing rubber gloves.  The human shape of the remains is maintained as nearly as possible.

Wrapped round with the canvas which is stitched or tied with string, and a label attached, the remains are transported to the vehicle (an ambulance, box-car or lorry).  The cross, if one is found, is attached to the remains.  They are then covered with a Union Jack and reverently carried to the Cemetery of concentration where the new grave is dug and ready to receive them."

It also specifies in the instructions:

"10.  The new grave will be 4'6" deep and a space (2') two feet wide will be allowed for each body"

There are many other interesting instructions for exhumations and reburial including/especially for Indians (Hindus or Mohamadans), for dealing with effects and the admin/paperwork, burial lay-outs, plans, crosses, Jewish memorials ['Star of David'] etc.

 

I wonder what the current day instructions are ???

[Chris_Baker]

Serious question. Does it matter?

[Matlock1418]

21 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

Serious question. Does it matter?

Yes, well I think so.

As per photos at start of thread - of a recent re-interment - seemed rather like second class treatment nowadays and I'd hate that to be the case.

Would be nice to know why CWGC decided to close up the headstones when this seems in contradiction of their own suggested explanations.

Edited 21 January , 2020 by Matlock1418
typo corr'n

[Chris_Baker]

Speaking as a relative of two of the tens of thousands who have no known grave and probably never received any form of burial and never will, the spacing between headstones does not strike me as too important a matter. But each to his own.

[Matlock1418]

11 minutes ago, Chris_Baker said:

Speaking as a relative of two of the tens of thousands who have no known grave and probably never received any form of burial

Likewise - as a relative of two 'missing'

If they are ever found I would hope CWGC would treat all of them with suitable first class respect - from exhumation, through identification, reburial and to headstones.

But each GWF pal to their own.

Edited 20 January , 2020 by Matlock1418

[Chris_Baker]

Perhaps you and I have different feelings about what respect and dignity are. I do not see how the spacing of the graves mentioned above is in any way disrespectful or undignified. These men finally have an identified grave and hurrah for that.

[Matlock1418]

2 hours ago, Chris_Baker said:

Perhaps you and I have different feelings about what respect and dignity are. I do not see how the spacing of the graves mentioned above is in any way disrespectful or undignified. These men finally have an identified grave and hurrah for that.

I guess we do, but I too am pleased that they have been laid to rest by CWGC.  But in a different style to others in the same cemetery, so ???

And what for future recovered remains?

 

One of the early problems with GRUs and IWGC was a lack of standardisation of  the search and exhumation & re-burial process and the Revised Instructions [link posted above] was apparently a revised attempt to ensure that a standardised process for exhumation & reburial with due respect was followed for all casualties - I've not yet found the previous, later or the current ones but am interested in these instructions too.

 

Without standards wasted effort, errors of identity & process and duplication etc. can get made - and these were early issues encountered during the war and problems which often needed post-war sorting out, or sadly resolution was often not possible post-war so a real shame.

• I believe standard I/CWGC headstones are 1'3" wide so based on the revised Instructions above if buried in 2' wide graves there should be a 9" gap between headstones - like the rest of the headstones in the cemetery in question it would seem.

So what has changed?  CWGC haven't yet offered an explanation.  Shame that it is seeming not possible to have transparency over their current process so we, the general public / relatives etc. can understand what has happened here and what will happen in the future.

 

Of course in the case of the televised re-burials we do not know the relatives' side of things - were they told before or after about headstone spacing? / have they been told? / what do they think now?

 

This is not an exercise in CWGC-bashing but if errors have been made [and I am not saying one has been made] it is usually better that they are sorted sooner rather than later - before they are set in tablets of stone! [I wonder where that phrase came from?] - For the benefit of those and future recovered servicemen and their relatives.

 

• Just seeking an explanation / understanding of past and current CWGC process

[and perhaps an explanation for the specific variation from programme to later reburial & headstone process and headstone spacing - but this is a lesser objective - and I again emphasise this is not a route to CWGC bashing - so please don't here]

 

P.S. For anyone still interested in the specific case from that mentioned in OP = In the Hermies Hill British Cemetery = Wallington and Mead [and presumably the unidentified soldier too] are now recorded on the CWGC website as being interred in "Cemetery/memorial reference: IV.F.1A-1C (Coll.)" - Certainly seems to be being treated as a collective burial by CWGC - but not the impression given by the JCCC/CWGC burial ceremony and the programme makers [who each obviously had their own agendas and levels of input/influence over what was broadcast and what happened afterwards] - and the CWGC process certainly does now seem to differ from immediately post-war and 1930s processes see posts  #3 = "a space (2') two feet wide will be allowed for each body" and #1 = "one coffin, 2 grave spaces were allowed"

So why the change / current process now?  What is it now?

Edited 21 January , 2020 by Matlock1418
clarification and expansion