Forest de Mormal 57a.A.4.d.8.4

[laughton]

This is a unique COG-BR 1979927 and the remains travelled a great distance in 1936 to be buried in the Canadian Cemetery No.2 at Neuville St. Vaast near Arras.

 

I paused, looked at it and then moved on to the next. Then I had to go back, as this is so unique it must be one that can be solved.

 

Could it be:

• British units south of Mons in 1914
• Occupation forces in 1918-1919
• an aviator that went down that far away

 

The overall area of where 57a is located: https://library.mcmaster.ca/maps/ww1/ndx5to40.htm

 

A specific map: [Avesnes] 57a

 

Anyone ever hear of this forest during the war?

 

Ah, Wikipedia gives us a clue:

 

The Forêt de Mormal (Forest of Mormal) is a forest in France, near the Franco-Belgian border. It is best known to the British for its role in the retreat from Mons in August 1914. Its perceived lack of passable roads forced I and II Corps of the British army to divide and the two corps did not reunite for some days. However, some units of the British army did pass through the forest. The German army also passed through the forest, taking Haig's II Corps by surprise.

 

 

[Keith Brannen]

I know the 42nd, 37th, 5th, and the New Zealand Divisions were north of there (entering the Foret de Mormal east of Herbignies) and fought on November 5-6 1918. I would assume there were other divisions entering the forest to the south at the same time period, but don't know which divisions. 

Edited 19 December , 2019 by Keith Brannen

[Hedley Malloch]

The Mormal Forest was home to many Allied soldiers trapped behind enemy lines during the retreat to the Marne in 1914. There was at least one party of 30-40 strong living there who surrendered in December 1914, but there were many other smaller groups. Soldiers in this part of France remained on the run at least until late 1917 and probably some stayed even longer. One of the attractions of the Forest is that housed Bellignies Château which was a collection point for Allied soldiers wanting to return to Great Britain or France via Belguim and Holland. From there they would be sent to the Edith Cavell clinic in Brussels and thence to neutral Holland. It was closed with the capture and trial of Cavell in 1915, but soldiers remained hidden there for years afterwards.

 

If you want to read more about the life and times of soldiers on the run in the Mormal Forest, then read Princess Marie de Croÿ, ‘War Memories’, MacMillan, 1932 and Louise Thuliez, ‘Condamnée à Mort’, Ernest Flammarion, 1933. Princess Mary’s family owned Bellignies Château; Louise Thuliez was her right-hand woman.

 

I also wrote about the experiences of soldiers hiding in the Mormal Forest in my book ‘The Killing of the Iron Twelve’, published this year by Pen & Sword.

[TEW]

62nd Division also in Mormal Forest Nov 18.

TEW

[JohnC]

Hello Richard,

I've attached some photos of a map which might be of use to you. It's a 1:20,00 sheet 51SW (14/201918) with the top portion of 57ANW attached. Your grid ref is towards the bottom left, I've done some close ups. This area was assaulted by the 38th (Welsh) Infantry Division's 115th Brigade on 4th November, on a 2,000 yard front (the blue arrows pointing NE), against fierce resistance. The tactical markings are original to the map, not something which I've added. Your GR is close to what appears to be their start line of 06:15am. There is a pencilled cross and letter D close to its left.

Perhaps this will help?

Regards,

John

[laughton]

Great information TEAM GWF!

 

I am Canadian, so this geographic area was all new to me and that is what caught my attention, as well as the great distance the remains moved to be buried near Arras. I was not really attempting to identify the person, but now with that information why not take a peek at some candidates.

 

I would have never known where to look for who was there and at what time. Once you mentioned the date, I could see that also matched what was shown on the McMaster Map for [Landrecies] 57a.NW Enemy Rear Organisation 22-10-18. The LLT for the 38th (Welsh) Division gave me the units of the 115th Brigade.

 

There are probably more, but the first thing that popped up was that Private William Henry Roberts #94469 was missing for that day. He was 2nd Bn, Royal Welsh Fusiliers and the only one of the 2nd or 17th missing between the 2nd and 6th of November 1918. Checking next, there are also two from the 10th South Wales Borderers missing, identified as Private Evan John Cosgrove #23092 and Private Sydney Eustace Ratcliffe #48126.

 

I checked all the other men lost during that period, also on the Vis-en-Artois Memorial, and there are no 38th Divisional Troops, Artillery, Engineers, Medical, etc. missing. That means there are only three candidates for the 115th Brigade.

 

The locations of the men can be checked for the 2nd Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers (war diary page 31 of 47). They refer to their presence at Engle Fontaine, which I see at 57a.A.1.b. The attack went forward at 5:30 am on the 4th with the 18th Division on the right and the 17th Division on the left. The 115th Brigade opened the attack at zero +45. The formation was 2/RWF on the right, 10 SWB centre and 17/RWF on the left. The war diary refers to the battalion having to cross the stream "Ruisseau des Eclusettes" and then enter the clearing at the first objective, which would appear to be in 57a.3.d / 57a.9.b and 57a.4.c / 57a.10.a, on a direct path towards where the remains were recovered at 57a.A.4.d.8.4. The casualty record for KIA was 2nd/Lt. W R C Keepfer and 10 ORs. In addition 4 Officers were wounded and 65 ORS were wounded or missing.

 

Turning to the 10th Battalion South Wales Borderers (war diary page 385 of 439) we have agreement on the ORBAT. If needed later, both sets of war diaries also give the position of the Companies within the battalion. As there are no men missing from the 17th/RWF on the left, the centre force is the more likely to hit the area at 57a.A.4.d, as the dividing line with the 18th Division (at least on 22 October 1918) runs along the south side of the clearing in 51a.9 and 10 central. There is also reference to the 113th Brigade passing through the 115th, one hour after reaching the objective, thus we would need to check on any men missing from the 113th Brigade in the same area. That would be the 13th, 14th and 16th RWF. There are three (3) men missing, one each on the 2nd, 4th and 6th of the month. Strange numbers as no men are reported killed on the 2nd or 6th of the month? It would thus have to be someone that was wounded, later died and was lost (or buried and grave lost).

 

2nd/Lt. W.R.C. Keepfer of the 2nd/RWF was recovered from 57a.A.2.c.1.9 (southeast edge of Engle Fontaine), which appears to have been a burial ground. He is now in grave II.D.4 at the Montay-Neuvilly Road Cemetery. On that same page COG-BR 2028682 we have three (3) unknown Royal Welsh Fusiliers and one (1) South Wales Borderers. There are also two (2) known RWF, namely Walker and Evans both of the 14th/RWF (113th Brigade).

 

From the CWGC database for all battalions missing for the period 2-6 November 1918 (those in area named and linked):

• six (6) Royal Welsh Fusiliers
  • Roberts (above) 2nd Bn 115th Bde
  • Isaac  and Watkins 13th Bn 113th Bde
  • Bate 16th Bn 113th Bde
• three (3) South Wales Borderers
  • Cosgrove and Ratcliffe are candidates, as both 10th Battalion

Perhaps a member with more knowledge of the specific units and placements can narrow down the alternatives?

 

Additional Notes Added:

 

If it did turn out the either Cosgrove or Ratcliffe (10/SWB) was the UNKNOWN concentrated into in Canadian Cemetery No. 2 then we would also know the name of the other man in the Montay-Neuvilly Road Cemetery.

 

I will need to go back and check this date, as outside the range evaluated to date:

15 hours ago, TEW said:

62nd Division also in Mormal Forest Nov 18.

TEW

Edited 20 December , 2019 by laughton
added: Additional Note

[Hedley Malloch]

Is there any evidence that the soldier in question was a 1918 casualty rather than one who was left behind in 1914?

[laughton]

No. I am just following leads GWF members have left. Do you have 1914 leads?

[Hedley Malloch]

There is no significance in the fact that the body was buried some way from where it was found. Bodies were constantly being discovered and were buried in whichever IWCG cemetery was open to new burials at the time. These were often some distance away.

 

There were remnants of the 1914 BEF adrift in the Mormal Forest and its surrounds for years afterwards - see the two books in my previous posts. On the maps are the villages of Englefontaine and Locquignol; they supported the soldiers with food on condition that they stayed out of the village. The Germans were active in the Forest cutting down trees for timber for the trenches. Over the course of the war they cut down 70% of the Forest - note the references on the maps to felled and thinned timber. The Germans knew Allied soldiers were hiding there and combed the wood for them. Further, there were hunting parties of German officers who stumbled onto them. There were fire fights between them; others may have been found and shot out of hand. Another possibility is that the your soldier died of exposure or illness caused by living in the open through the freezing Picardy winters.

 

My point is that it is not particularly helpful to try and identify him as a 1918 KIA unless he can ruled out as a 1914 casualty, 

 

[laughton]

I will help all those that wish to participate in the project. Please present your evidence. I am Canadian and have no idea who was there in 1914. Start there and forward we go!

[Hedley Malloch]

For sure, soldiers from the following units: 2/Royal Munster Fusiliers, 2/Connaught Rangers, Manchester Regiment, Royal Artillery, Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders, Gordon Highlanders, Scots Greys, Royal Irish Rifles, King's Own Scottish Borderers, Cameron Highlanders, The Worcestershire Regiment, Warwickshire Regiment, Loyal North Lancashire Regiment and 11th Hussars. Men from all of these units are known to have been present in the Forest in 1914-5. If we include solders lost elsewhere, but who may have passed through the Forest en route to the Dutch border, then the list expands even more. 

 

So when you are drawing up your shortlist of possibles you are going to have to include names from these units listed on  the Memorial to the Missing of the BEF at La Ferté-sous-Jouarre. Sources are cited above and as well as these you can look in the private papers of Princess May de Croÿ who made notes of names and regiments of the soldiers who passed through her hands. In her papers, there is the diary of Captain Bushell who led a band of men lost in the Forest and he kept a note of regiments, too. All these you can find in the Belgian State Archives in Mons.

 

Here's a thought. Perhaps your man is better left as an 'unknown'? Whilst he is 'unknown' he stands for the lost soldiers of all of these units, as well as those lost in 1918. He could be anyone of them. If you identify him are you not taking something away from the memory of the others? Just a thought.

 

Anyway, good luck - and keep us posted.

[barney5042]

Lieut. C.H. Bushell's 19-page account of his time as an evader, including his months spent in the Forest de Mormal, was published as an appendix in "A History of the Queen’s Bays".  I don't recall it mentioning any soldiers who died.

 

Edited 18 April , 2020 by barney5042

[Hedley Malloch]

He didn't - and he didn't mention any in his diary. But he had left the Forest by November 1914. There were British soldiers on the loose in the area long after then.

[barney5042]

1 hour ago, Hedley Malloch said:

He didn't - and he didn't mention any in his diary. But he had left the Forest by November 1914. There were British soldiers on the loose in the area long after then.

Thanks Hedley, is Bushell mentioned in The Killing of the Iron Twelve?

[Hedley Malloch]

Yes - his story is told in chapter 2 “On the Run”.

[laughton]

On 19/12/2019 at 17:39, Hedley Malloch said:

Princess Marie de Croÿ, ‘War Memories’, MacMillan, 1932

 

Good - available on Archive.org!

https://archive.org/details/warmemories00croyuoft/mode/2up

 

The downloads do not appear to work, other than the B&W single page, but the "read online" works fine. This version is from the McMaster Collection, which has a number of other interesting books (see here).

[Hedley Malloch]

In this book she pulls her punches. Her archive contains some post-war correspondence between herself, the Bushell family and Preston. It is clear from this that she did not want the soldiers to surrender and that escape was possible. Preston disagreed and it is his version of events which has survived. Preston does not come out well.

[barney5042]

2 hours ago, Hedley Malloch said:

In this book she pulls her punches. Her archive contains some post-war correspondence between herself, the Bushell family and Preston. It is clear from this that she did not want the soldiers to surrender and that escape was possible. Preston disagreed and it is his version of events which has survived. Preston does not come out well.

 

If you don't mind me asking, what is your impression of Bushell from this correspondence?

 

Edited 20 April , 2020 by barney5042

[Hedley Malloch]

On 20/04/2020 at 01:04, barney5042 said:

 

If you don't mind me asking, what is your impression of Bushell from this correspondence?

 

 

I think the best way to answer that is to summarise the correspondence:

 

In a letter dated 1 February 1919 to PMdC from James Bushell, Claude’s father, James expresses his gratitude for looking after his son and goes on to say that it took five months for him to return to Great Britain. He says that Claud does not talk much about those terrible days.  ‘The most remarkable fact that informed me at the time was his comparative good health’.  He was allowed to remain home only 14 days and then ordered to the reserves previous to returning to France.  ‘That was much too short for the recovery of his shattered nerves, not at that time apparent.  Since then he has been home from time to time on short leave, generally for three days, crossing the channel eighteen times.  Seems to think he has come through it.’

 

Early in 1918, his horse fell on him badly injuring his leg. He was eventually sent to this country for an operation which was not serious.  James went on to say, ‘I regret to say that his health at present is not at all good – nerves are the trouble and the Drs say it is the reaction of the bodily and mental strain he endured in the stages of the war. – I am afraid the operation and accident he had did much to help things in the wrong direction.

 

In early 1919 Claud is still in the army, attached to the HQ of Eastern Command and Provost Marshal.  Talks about ‘pulling round and get quite strong again.’  In April 1919, he writes to PMdC from the Grand Hotel, Eastbourne where he has been convalescing. He sends her a silver box which he hopes will be a souvenir of 1914 ‘and at the same time a slight mark of appreciation for all that you did for me during those anxious times’.  He has been at the Grand for three months, but he is now ‘stronger and will soon be quite fit again’ and that he wants to come and see her and appreciate the Chateau without living in fear of the Boche.’ 

[barney5042]

On 29/04/2020 at 09:34, Hedley Malloch said:

 

I think the best way to answer that is to summarise the correspondence:

Many thanks for that.

 

I was fortunate to acquire Bushell's medals some years ago and wrote a summary of his odyssey, which I posted on the British Medal Forum.  I thought it most fortunate that three accounts of his months behind enemy lines were published.

 

I look forward to reading your book, which I have ordered.

 

Barney

[Hedley Malloch]

9 hours ago, barney5042 said:

Many thanks for that.

 

I was fortunate to acquire Bushell's medals some years ago and wrote a summary of his odyssey, which I posted on the British Medal Forum.  I thought it most fortunate that three accounts of his months behind enemy lines were published.

 

I look forward to reading your book, which I have ordered.

 

Barney

 

I think it was clear he was mentally shot. What happened to him after the war?

[barney5042]

3 hours ago, Hedley Malloch said:

 

I think it was clear he was mentally shot. What happened to him after the war?

After recovering from a broken leg injury he sustained in July 1918, Bushell was appointed Deputy Assistant Provost Marshal (i.e. an officer in the military police) with the rank of temporary Captain on March 18, 1919 and Assistant Provost Marshal with the rank of temporary Major on November 14, 1919. Bushell retired on April 21, 1920 and was placed on the Queen’s Bays roll of reserve officers with the rank of Captain. Bushell remained in the reserve until the outbreak of World War II.

 

Bushell appears to have been sufficiently wealthy to not have to work in a traditional job.  A 1936 passenger's list to Puerto Rico states his occupation as "Retd Army Officer."

 

Bushell rejoined the Army in 1939 prior to the outbreak of World War II, and served in various staff positions (e.g. Camp Commandant) in the Middle East, before again retiring in 1946.  From his service records, none of these appear to have been direct-combat appointments.  He finished the war as a major and qualified for four campaign medals.

 

Bushell never married and died in 1985, leaving an estate valued at £203140.