who did my Grt Grandad serve with at the Somme

[Karen25]

Hello

 

My Grt Grandad - John Wedderburn, was with 4 different units during the war.   Northumberland Fusiliers - 43280,    Leinster Regt - 15185,   R. Irish Regt - 40914,    Royal Engineers - 615978.

I can find his medal card on Ancestry, but sadly no service record.

 

I have just found out he was at the Somme and I wondered if there was anyway to tell who he was serving with at the time.  I know he ended his time with the Royal Engineers and i'm assuming he was possibly with the Northumberland Fusiliers at the Somme.

 

Would be lovely to have more information.

 

Many thanks.

[MaxD]

Each of the infantry regiments he served with had a number of battalions, the RE a number of companies.  The Battle of the Somme (actually a number of battles) is generally understood to be the July to November 1916 period but there were also other major engagements around the Somme in other years including 1918 2nd Battle of the Somme.that some know as "the Somme".

 

The problem therefore is knowing which battalion in which regiment we may be talking about.  To illustrate, 15 (I may have counted them wrongly) battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers fought there in 1916 and many also in 1918, a number of battalions didn't.  Leinster battalions also fought in 1916 and 1918.  The Royal Irish also fought at the Somme.  The Royal Engineers (motto - Ubique - everywhere) were present in some shape or form in every action everywhere.

 

Starting with what you have - do you have any more detail of what you recently learned about him and the Somme?

 

Max 

[Karen25]

Thank you for the information.   I knew it was going to be a long shot.  All I know is that he was at The Battle of The Somme and i've understood it to be the 1916 engagement.  I don't think my Mum knows any more than this, but it's always surprising what little bits of information suddenly come up that she suddenly remembers.  I will have another go and see if she can remember any thing else.

 

I don't suppose you can give me some idea of why he was moved to different regiments during his time. 

 

Thank you again

 

Karen

[andrew pugh]

Hi Karen

Did he survive the war? There is also a Medal index card for a John Wedderburn Pte 7/298 Northumberland Fusiliers entered theatre of war 1/11/1915 Disembodied.

British Victory Medal, British War Medal. 1915 Star.The John Wedderburn that you are enquiring about who served in 4 different battalions has an entry on the Medal Rolls but does not mention any dates.Was his middle name Pyle?

Regards

Andy 

[Ron Clifton]

Quite a few men were moved from English regiments to Irish regiments because conscription did not apply to Ireland and losses had to be made up from elsewhere. I would guess that this was the reason for his transfers to the Leinsters and, later, to the Royal Irish.

 

It is possible that his transfer to the RE was occasioned after he had been wounded, and he was transferred to a unit of the RE on the Lines of Communication, such as the Waterways and Railways section. If so, his RE number should be prefixed WR - is this the case?

 

It's a long shot, but does your mother or grandmother recall any mention of Sausage Valley and Mash Valley? These were areas of the battlefield on 1 July 1916 and might suggest that he was in 34th Division, which contained nine battalions of the Northumberland Fusiliers, and fought in those two valleys.

 

Ron

[Karen25]

Hi Andy

 

Yes he survived the war and no he had no middle name.  Such a shame most of the records were burnt.  Trying to piece together the little I know, is a challenge.

 

Hi Ron

Just checked the medal index, there is no prefix,  his rank was Sapper.  

 

I will ask if Mum remembers anything of Sausage Valley or Mash Valley (I love the names they used).

 

Thank you both

[sotonmate]

30 minutes ago, andrew pugh said:

Hi Karen

Did he survive the war? There is also a Medal index card for a John Wedderburn Pte 7/298 Northumberland Fusiliers entered theatre of war 1/11/1915 Disembodied.

British Victory Medal, British War Medal. 1915 Star.The John Wedderburn that you are enquiring about who served in 4 different battalions has an entry on the Medal Rolls but does not mention any dates.Was his middle name Pyle?

Regards

Andy 

Andy's 7/298 NF was also re-numbered to 290808 with 1/7 Battalion NF in the 1917 exercise so,if you are certain that John ended as an RE soldier then this man can be discounted.

[Terry_Reeves]

His RE number was issued in 1919. That doesn't mean he couldn't have been at the Somme  of course.  He may have signed on for an extra 12 months service in the RE, which many men did,  to assist with the clear-up or serve with the Army of Occupation in Germany for instance.

 

TR

Edited 15 December , 2019 by Terry_Reeves

[Karen25]

Thank you Terry, gives me something else to think about.

Do you think if I contacted the RE they may have some information, or is all the information lost due to being burnt ?

[RussT]

Men with similar NF numbers were being allotted those numbers upon being mobilised/conscripted to the 3/NF on 01/12/1916 - with records showing typically that they landed in France in April 1917.

 

Will need to look at his other infantry numbers to see when they were allotted as his units may not have been listed in chronological order - it's also possible (although I think unlikely) that he might have been with an earlier unit not recorded on his medal roll. But if so, it is even more unlikely he would have served overseas with that earlier unit.

 

Regards

 

Russ

 

 

[RussT]

Further to the above, I now conclude that his numbers are indeed in chronological order (as they should be) ...

 

Not looked at many records but it seems his Leinster Regiment number was allotted 12/05/1917 and his Royal Irish Regiment number was allotted on 21/03/1919. An earlier post determined his RE number was also allotted in 1919.

 

So it seems his service (as far as his numbers on his medal roll indicates) was:

 

01/12/1916 NF

12/05/1917 Leinster Reg.

21/03/1919 R. Irish Reg.

dd/mm/1919 RE

 

Regards

 

Russ

[clk]

Hi Karen,

 

2 hours ago, Ron Clifton said:

Quite a few men were moved from English regiments to Irish regiments because conscription did not apply to Ireland and losses had to be made up from elsewhere.

 

Looking at the medal rolls of the Leinster Regiment for men who served with them with near service numbers, it might point towards John arriving in active theatre badged as a Northumberland Fusilier, but possibly transferred at an Infantry Base Depot to the 2nd Battalion Leinster Regiment as part of a replacement draft. Further digging may help one way or another. I'll have another look tomorrow to see if I can find any likely dates, etc.

 

 

 

 

15185 Wedderburn

 

 

 

All images sourced from Ancestry 

 

Regards

Chris

Edited 15 December , 2019 by clk

[GWF1967]

If he fought on the Somme it would most likely have been during the March 1918 German offensive, this would seem to suggest he was with 7th Service Batt. Leinster Reg, men from which were transferred to 19th Entrenching Batt. who were employed laying light railway in the Somme region.

[Karen25]

Thank you so much everyone,  you have given me a lot to think about and moved me forward.   It means a lot to me to be able to do this, i'm attempting to put together details of all my relatives that served in WW1.  I don't want their contributions lost or forgotten (and sadly we are getting to the point where first hand knowledge is now lost to us).

 

I will sit down this afternoon and piece together everything you have all told me.

 

Thank you

Karen

 

[Jervis]

13 hours ago, GWF1967 said:

If he fought on the Somme it would most likely have been during the March 1918 German offensive, this would seem to suggest he was with 7th Service Batt. Leinster Reg, men from which were transferred to 19th Entrenching Batt. who were employed laying light railway in the Somme region.

 

The 2nd Leinsters were involved in the Somme 1918 too. 

[TEW]

He shows up on WO Casualty List 28/8/1917 as 15185 Leinsters. Enlisted Beal.

Difficult to point to a battalion. Looking backwards 3-4 weeks from that date 2/Leinsters had a 'Z day' 31/7/1917 Canada Street Tunnels, 149 wounded.

 

7/Leinsters were involved with training last week of July but on 31st July had 31 wounded near Potijze Chateau, then took over the line 1/8/17 and had 4 wounded.

TEW

 

 

[Jervis]

38 minutes ago, TEW said:

 from that date 2/Leinsters had a 'Z day' 31/7/1917 Canada Street Tunnels, 149 wounded.

 

Hi TEW, what’s a ‘Z Day’ ? 

[TEW]

First day of a planned British Offensive as far as I know were known as Z day. Preceding days X, Y then you'd have Z +1 etc.

In this case the dairy mentions it being Z day 3.50am.

TEW

[Jervis]

Ok. Thank you. 

[Karen25]

That's interesting,  I hadn't known he'd been injured (assumed, but didn't know for sure).  Thank you for finding that out.

 

[GWF1967]

9 hours ago, Jervis said:

 

The 2nd Leinsters were involved in the Somme 1918 too. 

Thanks. 

[Ken Lees]

A note of caution - being 'at the Battle of the Somme' is/was synonymous with being on the Western Front in WW1. I have researched numerous men who, according to family, were 'at the Somme'. Many turned out not to have been. The Somme is so engrained into our national consciousness, that it is often the most remembered (or mis-remembered) element of our ancestors' military history. 

[Karen25]

Thank you Ken,  noted.  I will take it with a 'pinch of salt' unless i can find out for definite.