Canadian Cemetery No. 2. Neuville-St. Vaast

[laughton]

In the postings recently, so I have assembled the details. Not a lot of information on where the concentrations came from, so they may mainly be from the battlefields. Here are the files that I have collected to date:

 

Canadian Cemetery No. 2, Neuville-St. Vaast

• COG-BR 1979548-1980102
• COG-BR 2132652-2132924
• GRRF 2132381-2132554
• GRRF Drafts 2003441-2003466
• SPEC-EXH

 

I believe that there are some of the new SPEC-EXH still mixed in with the other ZIP files, so check them all if you are looking for something particular.

 

This is what the CWGC has to say about the cemetery:

Quote

The cemetery was established by the Canadian Corps after the successful storming of Vimy Ridge on 9th April, 1917 and some of those buried in the cemetery fell in that battle or died of wounds received there, though the majority of the graves were made later for the burial of the dead recovered from surrounding battlefields and from isolated graves which were transferred into the cemetery over a period of years after the Armistice. The cemetery covers an area of 10,869 square metres and is enclosed by low walls of coursed stone. There are nearly 3,000, 1914-18 war casualties commemorated in this site. 29 Canadian soldiers buried at the time in the 11th Canadian Infantry Brigade Cemetery, Givenchy-en Gohelle and the Canadian cemetery near Gunner's Crater, Givenchy-en-Gohelle but whose graves are now lost are commemorated by special memorial headstones, inscribed to this effect with the additional quotation, "Their Glory shall not be blotted out".

 

There are no case files for this cemetery on the CWGC list as of April 2019. I have sent a request to the CWGC this morning for an update, or information that the list is no longer being circulated.

 

This cemetery was C.D.5 located at 36.S.21.a.6.7. It was not a cemetery that had a lot of concentrations from other smaller cemeteries, rather mainly from the battlefields. I will make note of any that had a high proportion of graves. One thing I have noticed is the wide area from which graves were concentrated.

 

These ones appear in the COG-BR documents:

• COG-BR 1979586 1979599 Loos en Gohelle Communal Cemetery 44a.G.35.d.05.40
• COG-BR 1979613 (also 4,5) Unknown Mass Grave 15 men 36.M.35.b.90.95 apparently from March 1915
  • another one here in close proximity but from October 1914 COG-BR 1979891 to 1979894
• COG-BR 1979644 Eleu-dit-Leauwette Communal Cemetery 44a.N.25.d.95.95 (a known Canadian from a grave at 44a.N.19.d.4.6 at Lens - Hill 70)
• COG-BR 1979927 Forest de Normal 57a.A.4.d.8.4 - a unique position, have not seen any on 57a previously
• COG-BR 1979933 Rougefay Churchyard, Lens  - 1/100.000 TMC 3.C.04.38
• COG-BR 1979960 Something to do with Mory Churchyard at 57c.B.21.b.98.05
• COG-BR 1979985 Must be an ordered cemetery but no indication if allied or german
• COG-BR 1979996 Same situation, a number of pages for burials at 36.M.29.c.35.02, very specific, just north of Neuve Chapelle marked March 1915
• COG-BR 2132804 Four (4) pages of men of the 8th Bn Seaforth Highlanders found January 1930 in a 17 ft diameter shell hole at 44a.G.35.b.95.55
  • it appears one (MacKenzie) was identified on COG-BR 2132805, setting the date as 25 September 1915
  • there were 260 lost that day and 197 of them are on the Loos Memorial (CWGC Link)
• COG-BR 2132823 Haplincourt Communal Cemetery 57c.O.9.b.6.9
• COG-BR 2132876 Bullecourt Churchyard 51b.U.27.b.9.8

 

Possible cases: (not all included here - picking ones that have reasonable clues that could lead to a case - many other Unknown British Officers)
 

• COG-BR 1979561 - UBS ("Tyne" on knife) from the East Yorkshire Regiment at 51b.H.30.c.1.8 which is 6.000 yards due east of Arras, north of Monchy-le-Preux. Private William Tythe #34267 is missing at that location on 21 April 1917 (war diary page 112 of 1011), thus listed on the Arras Memorial. They were digging a new connecting trench from 51b.I.31.c.9.5 to 51b.H.36.d.6.6 when 7 O.R. were KIA. Others lost that day were recovered, such as Saxby at 51b.H.20.d.8.4 (COG-BR 2148830) and Windas at 51b.I.25.d.1.5 (COG-BR 2148794). That puts Tythe and Windas less than 600 yards apart about 1,000 yards north of the trench line, probably on the road (track) to Pelves on the southside of the Scarpe. There is a map (war diary page 125 of 1011) showing them on that Pelves Lane in 51b.H.30 as early as 12 April 1917, remaining there until the major attack on 23 April 1917. This has to be more than just coincidence! There were 30 men on the Medal Rolls with the last name Tyne, one of whom had an affiliation to the East Yorkshire Regiment #38036, prior to the Royal Munster Fusiliers #18587 and one #TR/581586 discharged sick . No Tyne's with the East Yorkshire Regiment were killed in the Great War.
   
• COG-BR 1979567 - one of the missing men of the 58th CEF lost on 27-28 August 1918 and not recovered until April 1931. An interesting case and directly tied to the initiation of the UNKNOWN PROJECT back in September 2014. This is a great story or a great hunt and I have put all the update from this cemetery in a new post on the CEFSG, as it is an existing Canadian story. See the details here: Massey Ontario War Dead - Update 14 December 2019 Post #43. Also put out today on Twitter: Massey War Dead. If the CWGC was open to adding dates to gravestones, then this should be marked 27-28 August 1918. Most people would think that this man, given the cemetery location, was a man of the 58th Battalion lost in the attacks on Vimy Ridge on 9 April 1917.
   
• COG-BR 1979574 - We know this man attested to the 222nd Canadian Infantry Battalion from Winnipeg, Manitoba. For those that are not aware, all the recovered Canadian Nominal Rolls that we have collected over the years are in the folders starting with "N" on our Shared MediaFire Site. The 222nd would be in "N5 B2" Numbered Battalions. There is not currently enough information to name the man. We know from the TMC 51b.B.5.c.60.75 that he was found on the approach to Arleux-en Gohelle, probably in the attack of 28 April 1917 (Nicholson Sketch 40). That was primarily the 8th Battalion of the 2nd Canadian Infantry Brigade who were on the left flank of the 2nd Oxford & Bucks. There are 71 men of the 8th Battalion on the Vimy Memorial for that specific date (CWGC Link). The 22nd Battalion (Canadian Forestry) had the numbers 291001-294000 (CEF Matrix). There are three (3) men in the 8th Bn lost that day with numbers starting with 291, two (2) men starting with 292, and none with 293 or 294. Thus we have narrowed it down to one of five men. I checked one randomly, Private Biglow #291400 and it says that his grave was reported to be at 51b.B.5.c.5.9 - very close for a random check! Now I will have to check the others. Private Forman #291419 has a reported grave at the same location and was reported killed by a shell shortly after leaving the "jumping off" trench. Privates Montroy #291112, Lauder #292245 and Girling #292007 have no recorded grave. As with the case above, this now has a date of death and a battalion. There are no other men with a 222nd Battalion number missing on that date in any other battalion.
   
• COG-BR 1979584 - Like the other cases above, we can tie these two Canadians to the 24th Battalion, 5th Infantry Brigade in the attack at Hill 70 on 15 August 1917. They were found on the east side of Cite St. Emilie. Not that we can identify them, at least not yet, but it is quite easy with the Canadians to find the battalion and date with the records that area available. Too bad they did not record what was on the ring! We could look for two men that were "badly intermingled". It would take some work as there are fifty-eight (58) men on the VImy Memorial for that date and battalion (CWGC Link).
   
• COG-BR 1979603 - A Sergeant Major of the Royal Marine Light Infantry at 51b.B.30.b.45.80 which places us in the Oppy-Gavrelle sector northeast of Arras. This case has now been cut out and placed in a separate topic in "Recovering the Fallen":
  • https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/277473-canadian-cemetery-no-2-case-1-rmli-company-sergeant-major/
     
• COG-BR 1979653 - Just for fun, haul out the Scottish experts, as this "possible officer" in 14.C.12 must be "Jack B***" from Fasnacloich. Possibly the investigators at the time thought the name of the Officer was "J. B. Fasnacloich", not "J.B" from Fasnacloich?
   
• COG-BR 1979656 - What are the odds that there would be two (2) Second Lieutenants, both in the 8th Bn Royal Berkshire Regiment, both missing from 13 October 1915 at 44a.G.11.c.4.7. Our man was about 5' 9" and wore size 9 boots (SPEC-EXH 1979657).
   
• COG-BR 1979667 - A Canadian with titles of the 80th Bn Canadian Infantry (did not serve in action) so it was someone with original titles which means a service number starting with 219 or 220. The remains were in the Souchez Sector 44a.S.8.b.3.4 which points towards the raids in the Souchez-Avion Sector in May-June 1917. Private John Easton Paterson #220533, now with the 44th Battalion was there, WIA then MIA then reported DOW. He was in the trenches at La Coulotte, on the west side of Avion, and quite possibly taken back to medical aid a Souchez.
   
• COG-BR 1979703 - This one caught my attention because it is a RMLI Corporal with a revolver and holster. I thought only Officers had revolvers, sometimes men of the MGC. The CWGC database shows six (6) missing that week at Gavrelle, all on the 28th, 5 of the 1/RMLI and one (1) of 2/RMLI. Could the revolver be a clue as to the identity of this seaman? Unfortunately, since the remains were at 51b.B.24.b.35.72 that means he was most likely one of the five (5) of 1/RMLI and not the sole Corporal of 2/RMLI. I place him on Fable Trench, probably the jumping off trench that day for 1/RMLI.
   
• COG-BR 1979704  - Same location at Gavrelle and there is one man of 1/RMLI with the initials "F. D.", Private Frederick Dennett PO/1588(S). There are 17 others for that same time period in late April 1918 but I am projecting that this is the man! The other units would need to be checked to make sure they were not in that same area.
   
• COG-BR 1979709 - An Officer, probably of 1/RMLI as with another RMLI man in the same grave and the location is a match to 20-30 April 1917 at 51b.B.24.a.63.95. My guess is that there were too many officers lost that day to make a match.
   
• COG-BR 1979800 - Just as an example, there is no such location as 44a.M.25.c.5.3. Same as map 36c but this is on the left border of the map and there are only sectors b & d, no c. Probably a typo and the remains of the 102nd Bn Canadian found near the electrical plant at N25.
   
• COG-BR 1979833 - This large group of Royal Fusiliers at 51b.B.24.c.80.05, with the man of the RMLI, would all be from the action at Gavrelle 20-30 April 1917. That narrows the Captain down to one of three men (CWGC link). The logical answer, perhaps the only answer (need to check war diaries) is that it was Captain Basil Raymond Granville of the 7th Bn Royal Fusiliers, 190th Brigade, 63rd (Royal Naval) Division. There is another Royal Fusilier Officer found in the same grave and buried next to the Captain. There are two (2) Lieutenants missing, both affiliated with the 7th Bn Royal Fusiliers (CWGC Link). There are three (3) possible Second Lieutenants, two (2) from the 10th Bn on the 23rd and one (1) from the 7th Bn on the 30th. No other Officers missing.
  • The next COG-BR 1979834 has another group from the same location, one being from the HAC (Honourable Artillery Company). The UBS with the ring "E T" could be Private Edgar Tourle #60997 of the 7th Royal Fusiliers, also lost on the 23rd. Wonder if he had dentures? None of the other nineteen (19) candidates for that time period were in the same area (behind Falcon Trench) as Edgar Tourle (CWGC Link) - unless may Ernest Turell of the Nelson Bn.?
  • No idea where the three (3) men of the York & Lancaster regiment came from on the next page, very close to the others. More of them on following pages.
     
• COG-BR 1979866 - A Canadian 15th Bn man north of Thelus wearing a trade badge of a Pioneer. I have sent this to Greg Young at the 15th Bn Memorial Project. To be at that location he has to be after 9 APril 1917, so a short list and he has a trade badge of interest. One of these men (CWGC Link)?
   
• COG-BR 1979877 & SPEC-EXH 1979878 - A Captain of the Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers perhaps? Eight (8) candidates and it is not Captain Ritty at Guillemont. Perhaps of interest to someone who wants to check out the others?
   
• COG-BR 2132855 - A Canadian with the initials R.H.B.  (there are none missing) recovered at 44a.S.15.d.7.1, so that is Vimy Ridge +/- 9 April 1917. The location tells me it is a 4th Division man, most likely 12th Infantry Brigade. That brings up the logical candidate R.A.B. Roderick Alexander Bannatyne of the 78th Battalion. He had a registered grave at 44a.S.15.c&d which is easily within 100 yards of where the remains were recovered. Photo and telegram on Canadian Virtual War Memorial - just a kid - sure does not look 20!
   
• COG-BR 2132876 Bullecourt Churchyard 51b.U.27.b.9.8 - added to the list above for locations. Someone familiar with the British units that served this area might have an idea how to determine what British Officer was buried at the church? If he was Canadian, I would know who was there but not for the British - any ideas?

 

... a great number of men with numbers on various items, too many to investigate them all now

... to be continued all finished

 

Edited 22 December , 2019 by laughton
updating as records checked; splitting off significant topics; now finished

[Cheshire22]

Plot 8, Row GG, Grave 2 (next to Bostock)

 

is an Unknown Soldier of the 1st Battalion, Leicestershire Regiment with a date of October 1914 

 

there seems to be only 1 from the said battalion and regiment who died in October 1914 who is missing and his name appears on the La Ferte-Sous-Jouarre Memorial 

 

7600 Private William Robert Bradford, 5th October 1914

 

for the same month, 57 men from the same battalion and regiment have there names on the Ploegsteert memorial in Belgium 

 

 

 

Edited 14 December , 2019 by Cheshire22

[laughton]

Here is a good example as why not to trust spoons, knives, razors and ground sheets with numbers. This fellow of the 73rd Bn CEF obviously had Private Cunningham's #132506 spoon.

 

Grave 9.A.13, 3rd on the list:

 

 

 

[laughton]

This fellow in the Guards Regiment was at the same general location as 2nd Lieutenant Kipling et al, about 500 yards to the east. Not in officer's attire but with a silver cigarette holder?

 

What is particularly interesting about this "find" is that it was in May 1930 and the Second Lieutenant was recovered in September 1919.

 

 

[laughton]

These are two of the Australians killed when a time delay mine went off in the Bapaume Town Hall on 25 March 1917. @Becstar will have an interest!

 

We have discussed this at the CEFSG as a Canadian body was reported discovered as well, but that man was killed in Belgium, so it may have been another one of the Australians with some link to a Canadian? See this topic: Bapaume Town Hall explosion

 

As it appeared in 1932:

 

Another Aussie here: COG-BR 2132900

 

Edited 22 December , 2019 by laughton
another one

[Becstar]

Wow, brilliant!

It’s late here so only just had a super quick look now, there might be another few Unknown Aussies recovered from there. I’ll look into it within the next day with a fresh head. Has this been looked into already? If nothing has come from it a few years ago, I think I’m in the clear to check it out now. 

 

Thanks again Richard 😄

 

Edited 22 December , 2019 by Becstar
More info

[Becstar]

Quite confident have identified the two Aussie lads, have sent a message to you Richard. 👍🏻

Edited 22 December , 2019 by Becstar