The Western Front Association (WFA)

[Muerrisch]

Stand To! can of course only publish submitted material, although sometimes, as during the centenary, material is specifically sought from individuals with relevant knowledge and time on their hands. Also it is published in English, thus making life less than easy for those who write best in other languages. 

[Dragon]

Some years ago there was a piece published online broadly about the area which I do know something about. (The Vosges.) It contained some important claims which were factually wrong. I wrote - courteously, I thought - expecting that some simple editing could put matters right, and the response was that if I thought I could do better, then write my own. It seemed so unnecessarily aggressive and defensive. There came no acknowledgement that there had been some mistakes.

 

This was not the current team, but that sort of thing is very off-putting. Impressions linger.

[Steven Broomfield]

Is it possible that the very name of the organisation is a problem?

[Muerrisch]

36 minutes ago, Dragon said:

Some years ago there was a piece published online broadly about the area which I do know something about. (The Vosges.) It contained some important claims which were factually wrong. I wrote - courteously, I thought - expecting that some simple editing could put matters right, and the response was that if I thought I could do better, then write my own. It seemed so unnecessarily aggressive and defensive. There came no acknowledgement that there had been some mistakes.

 

This was not the current team, but that sort of thing is very off-putting. Impressions linger.

But simple editing does not put matters right, because print is print, and just sits there being wrong.

 

It was precisely this problem that led me and MG and many others to write the rejoinder to the Kipling Article ........ it was beyond changing once in print and the only  constructive way forward was to do the hard yards.bg 

Edited 5 January , 2020 by Muerrisch

[Dragon]

35 minutes ago, Muerrisch said:

But simple editing does not put matters right, because print is print, and just sits there being wrong. 

 

Yes, you're right. This was an online piece which could have been edited, or removed for corrections and re-writing before re-posting. The mistakes were absolutely basic and if anyone had been bothered to plough through the whole turgid thing, they would have come away with a complete misunderstanding of which side did what.

 

I remember the Kipling discussions.

[Hedley Malloch]

13 hours ago, Steven Broomfield said:

Is it possible that the very name of the organisation is a problem?

 

The name is not a problem for the YHA whose name has not stopped it from attracting those for whom 'youth' is now but a distant memory. What is a problem is some of the thinking which underpins the WFA brand.

The WFA faces a big problem of falling membership numbers. If it does not open itself to a wider field of WW1 operations, then where is it going to find new recruits? As it is, the biggest non-Western Front theatre was Gallipoli and that segment is already well-catered for. That leaves the Eastern Front, Africa, Mesopotamia, but there are insufficient students of these conflicts to plug the gap in the WFA's ranks now being mown down by the Grim Reaper and its handling of issues like the BdW..

Unless the WFA does something serious to address its declining enrolment, it will not have any other problems. Questions of the number of issues of the Bulletin or ST need to be seen for what they are - akin to the problems of the seating arrangements on the deck of the Titanic. Unless it changes, the WFA is on a long, slow glide path into history. Survival is not compulsory.

[Neil Mackenzie]

I joined years (30?) ago having been 'persuaded' by John Richardson on a battlefield tour that I should do so and have not regretted my membership for one moment.

 

The Stand To magazines is great although I don't really see the point anymore in the hard copy publication of Bulletin - the information and articles in there could easily be covered on the website or by an emailed pdf. I appreciate there may be a few members who don't have PC/internet access but we have to move on. The website is steadily improving both in terms of content and usability.

 

For me the fact that the WFA does not have limited liability is an issue that needs to be resolved to protect those who take a role on the EC. Some members also need to be way more realistic about what the EC can actually do and time they can commit given they are all volunteers and some have jobs and families to juggle. I have heard people complaining they never see EC members when they visit the battlefields (really!!).

 

There already are a range of membership options but could there be a 'School' membership where the school get 1 copy of the Stand To magazine? I suspect most young people don't know the WFA even exists so at least it would put the WFA name out there.

 

Neil

P.S.. I meant to add that the cost of special interest magazines similar to Stand To in WH Smith are at least £40 for a year. So on that basis alone the WFA membership is good value (if you like to read the magazine of course).

 

Edited 6 January , 2020 by Neil Mackenzie

[Hedley Malloch]

35 minutes ago, Neil Mackenzie said:

There already are a range of membership options but could there be a 'School' membership where the school get 1 copy of the Stand To magazine? I suspect most young people don't know the WFA even exists so at least it would put the WFA name out there.

 

This is a really good idea. Now it is my understanding that some schools are already provided with a free copy of ST. If true - and I do not know that it is - then it would be interesting to know the names of these schools and how they were chosen.

[Ann Murray]

I share the positive views of some responses here but am quite alarmed at the criticism levelled against the WFA. While accepting that some members have had difficulties/have been treated badly in other branches, it's important that the excelent work being done by many branches across the UK and Ireland not be overshadowed by negative feedback. I personally feel lucky to live near the Cork branch and be able to participate in their varied discussions.I am a professional art historian who writes on the impact of war on visual culture (inc. WWI) and have learnt much from attending local meetings. I feel much less isolated in my research and have found a cohort of like-minded individuals with whom to share knowledge. The committee here is very hard working and our chairman a stellar example of leadership that encourages and inspires others. The atmosphere is welcoming and supportive and personal growth attained through the opportunity to give detailed presentations and share insights with/gain feedback from others. I am very sure that without it, Cork would lose a valuable resource for those interested in WWI. In fact, the work of branch members has done much to mend what has been the fractured relationship of Irish people to that part of their history.  

 

I have also noted the criticism towards some branches and the WFA's publications.Bad behaviour by some branch committees towards individuals is, of course, unnacceptable. But regarding the WFA's publications, errors happen even in published, peer-reviewed work by major historians. I have seen the same piece of information repeated word for word in several publications - taken as fact because a major figure stated it first. It happens no matter how hard a researcher works to check all sources. If errors have happened in the WFA publications, it is no exception. It happens from the top down with the best publishers and scholars. As a researcher, I've learnt to question all texts because there will be errors. But I'd never let it destroy my ability to read and enjoy the work of others and neither should anyone else. The WFA's publications are insightful and inspirational - and they have also encouraged the growth of young researchers whose work has been published in Stand To! for example. 

 

 

[KizmeRD]

The reason I never joined was that my interests were wider than just the WF, and living in Germany rather limits ones ability to attend meetings (so not worth me paying another subscription fee).

[Muerrisch]

The WFA's publications are insightful and inspirational 

 

ST! yes, but the Bulletin? Seriously?

It is ephemeral and a drain on resources, print and distribution. Any historical essays should be in ST!, and the photos of wind- and rain-swept refugees from a Mountain Warehouse closing down sale provide neither insight nor inspiration, and are no longer even laughable.

Close the Bulletin and make ST! quarterly, with a laugh and tear-out section on brown poor-quality paper, of Branch Meetings, Annual reports and apologia for cock-ups.

[Ann Murray]

Old Sweats,

Stand To! is very insightful and inspirational.  I don't know whether you're a member or not - but it's clear you haven't thought thorugh the role of the Bulletin. It is interesting, for me at least, to see what other branches are doing, and can generate ideas among branches regarding activities, events, etc. The website is not enough on its own for branch news - some members are elderly, internet is not perfect and the printed Bulletin is the way they need to receive this information. At least for the moment. The entire perspective on the Bulletin can only be seen by those who have a global knowledge of members' needs. 

 

Anyway, if you are a member, you should contact the WFA with these concerns - this is not the place for it - especially if you care about the organisation and value what it offers.

[Muerrisch]

1 hour ago, Ann Murray said:

Old Sweats,

Stand To! is very insightful and inspirational.  I don't know whether you're a member or not - but it's clear you haven't thought thorugh the role of the Bulletin. It is interesting, for me at least, to see what other branches are doing, and can generate ideas among branches regarding activities, events, etc. The website is not enough on its own for branch news - some members are elderly, internet is not perfect and the printed Bulletin is the way they need to receive this information. At least for the moment. The entire perspective on the Bulletin can only be seen by those who have a global knowledge of members' needs. 

 

Anyway, if you are a member, you should contact the WFA with these concerns - this is not the place for it - especially if you care about the organisation and value what it offers.

 

I find your tone aggressive and condescending, as an example  "it's clear you haven't thought through the role of the Bulletin"

 

My qualifications to air an opinion:

 

I have been a member of WFA since ST! issue 6.

I have run many private battlefield tours.

I am an active contributor of articles on a variety of subjects .... a dozen or more.

I am a published historian ..... half a dozen well-received books so far.

 

I contacted the WFA about 6 years ago, setting out my concerns over the Bulletin, and was met by a storm of public and private invective by the WFA Establishment.

 

That should set the record straight.

 

May I ask you: what is in the Bulletin that could not, with advantage, be added to ST!, given an extra ST! per annum?

[Don Regiano]

2 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

 

I find your tone aggressive and condescending, as an example  "it's clear you haven't thought through the role of the Bulletin"

 

My qualifications to air an opinion:

 

I have been a member of WFA since ST! issue 6.

I have run many private battlefield tours.

I am an active contributor of articles on a variety of subjects .... a dozen or more.

I am a published historian ..... half a dozen well-received books so far.

 

I contacted the WFA about 6 years ago, setting out my concerns over the Bulletin, and was met by a storm of public and private invective by the WFA Establishment.

 

That should set the record straight.

 

May I ask you: what is in the Bulletin that could not, with advantage, be added to ST!, given an extra ST! per annum?

 

and I think Ann ought to re-read the start of this thread to see what it is about if "this is not the place for it".  I don't think the OP was looking for replies only from sycophants.

Edited 24 January , 2020 by Don Regiano

[Chris_Baker]

13 hours ago, Muerrisch said:

...  photos of wind- and rain-swept refugees from a Mountain Warehouse closing down sale ...

 

Hey, I did not give permission for my image rights to be violated in that way!

[Buelligan]

9 hours ago, Don Regiano said:

 

and I think Ann ought to re-read the start of this thread to see what it is about if "this is not the place for it".  I don't think the OP was looking for replies only from sycophants.

I'm not so sure about that, given his testy replies to me and another poster.  However, I would say - if there are no problems at all, nothing needs changing and everything is perfect, why ask for thoughts and opinions?

 

If you want peoples' ideas, if they're good enough to take the time to provide them in a cogent form, why not consider them, pass them on, use them, even?  This is how things are improved so that they become more useful, interesting and popular for a greater number of people (which, I believe, is the point of the exercise),

[Don Regiano]

8 hours ago, Buelligan said:

I'm not so sure about that, given his testy replies to me and another poster.  However, I would say - if there are no problems at all, nothing needs changing and everything is perfect, why ask for thoughts and opinions?

 

If you want peoples' ideas, if they're good enough to take the time to provide them in a cogent form, why not consider them, pass them on, use them, even?  This is how things are improved so that they become more useful, interesting and popular for a greater number of people (which, I believe, is the point of the exercise),

 

I have heeded my own advice and re-read the thread (very speedily).  I agree with your logic - which was really the root of my unwise intervention.  I have never been a member of WFA and have no desire to become one, despite my interest (in particular, but not exclusively) in the Somme and having a place over there.  I expect it does many good things.

 

I hope it will be warming up over there before my return to the trenches.

 

Reg

Edited 24 January , 2020 by Don Regiano

[Buelligan]

7 minutes ago, Don Regiano said:

 

I have heeded my own advice and re-read the thread (very speedily).  I agree with your logic - which was really the root of my unwise intervention.  I have never been a member of WFA and have no desire to become one, despite my interest (in particular, nut not exclusively) in the Somme and having a place over there.  I expect it does many good things.

 

I hope it will be warming up over there before my return to the trenches.

 

Reg

I'm a bit further south, possibly better for lovely scenery and warm weather, not so good for trenches.  It is warming up nicely here, all the windows are open and the birds singing their hearts out.

[Don Regiano]

3 minutes ago, Buelligan said:

I'm a bit further south, possibly better for lovely scenery and warm weather, not so good for trenches.  It is warming up nicely here, all the windows are open and the birds singing their hearts out.

 

Just send the warmth a bit further north then for next month, please!  I had my share of the cold, misty Somme last December.

[Buelligan]

I'm afraid you'll just have to wait.  Hope I'm not digressing too much, I really dislike the cold, whenever I feel a bit chilly and miserable, I think of those poor lads huddled in their dugouts and it gives me a little bit of perspective.

[Gareth Davies]

18 hours ago, Ann Murray said:

Anyway, if you are a member, you should contact the WFA with these concerns - this is not the place for it - especially if you care about the organisation and value what it offers.

Ann

 

i started this discussion. I wanted to hear the views of the GWF so that I could provide a wider view back to the rest of the WG that I am sitting on.  This is absolutely the place to have this discussion.

[Muerrisch]

2 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

Ann

 

i started this discussion. I wanted to hear the views of the GWF so that I could provide a wider view back to the rest of the WG that I am sitting on.  This is absolutely the place to have this discussion.

 

Thank you.

 

Ann, I would welcome discussion on the future of the Bulletin.

 

What do you think is in it that could not, with advantage, be added to ST!, assuming an extra ST! per annum?

 

Can you give recent examples which demand exposure in a Bulletin, rather than in a section of an enlarged ST ?

I believe that no commercial organisation would think for long before adopting my suggestion, thus providing a better service in serious articles and in removable ephemera, It would reduce handling, reduce postage, and reduce one editor perhaps.

To say that the WFA is not a commercial organisation is to state the obvious, but i believe it cannot survive if it neglects commercial initiatives and pressures.

[Dragon]

3 hours ago, Gareth Davies said:

Ann

 

i started this discussion. I wanted to hear the views of the GWF so that I could provide a wider view back to the rest of the WG that I am sitting on.  This is absolutely the place to have this discussion.

 

Thank you, Gareth. You invited our reasons for not joining and I hope that most of us who have decided that the WFA is not for us have explained our reasons in a considered and useful way.

 

The remarks implying that we should tolerate the making of mistakes have been made without the new member knowing anything about the background. I am one who referred to mistakes. Ok. I wasn't planning to explain, but.. The piece to which I am referring said (for example) that Germany gave both Alsace and Lorraine back to France in 1871 after France paid reparations in order to regain those regions. Then [ie in 1871] the Germans left Alsace and Lorraine. (Not a quotation.) I will leave it at that.

 

Muerrisch doesn't need me to defend him, but I find the lofty assumption about his powers of thought quite outrageous and it is clear that as a new member she does not know who she is writing about.

 

Gwyn

 

 

Edited 24 January , 2020 by Dragon
Checking my legacy email trail

[Ann Murray]

First of all, Muerrisch, I did not intend to be condescending or aggressive - we've misunderstood each other, that's all. But I concede that it may have sounded aggressive from your perspective. From where I'm coming from, stating something like 'it's clear you haven't thought through the role of the Bulletin' is not aggressive. I endure this all the time and maybe I'm hardened to being criticised myself - at academic conferences, I like most others are regularly confronted by other scholars challenging the validity of research.  Being told we haven't considered this or that would be pretty tame.

 

Re. mistakes in articles. they are maddening but will happen. Peer-review before publication would help minimize them.

 

KizmeRD, I can only envy the regular opportunity to speak German. I had to learn the language while doing my PhD so that I could do primary research on Weimar Germany. 

 

Gareth, re publications of the WFA: I'm aware that some members do like to read the Bulletin, and others like to receive the printed Bulletin because they don't like reading from a screen. Personally, I'd be happy to receive Stand To!/Bulletin in digital form to save resources but others might not feel that way - members who can't attend meetings regularly might feel they're not getting much for their money by just getting digital editions. 

 

Regarding feedback on the WFA in general, I can only comment on my own experience. For me, the monthly meetings and opportuntity to exchange knowledge with other people is the most important aspect. I have no real complaints. I have other imput regarding the publications but I would prefer to direct it to those doing the editing - I just feel it's more respectful.  

 

 

 

 

[Gareth Davies]

Er, why are you talking to me about paper vs digital magazines @Ann Murray? I challenged you on the use of the GWF as a forum for discussing the WFA.