Paul Bradford Posted 2 December , 2019 Share Posted 2 December , 2019 My Great Grandfather enlisted on the 16th August 1915 and is shown on his records to have "Landed in France" on 22nd August 1915. Six days! He was mortally wounded while repairing roads in October of the following year. Andrew worked for Poplar Council as a Road Sweeper and might well have had other skills. We have a photograph of him marching, carrying a rifle. I'm not sure if it is in France or England but would love to find out how much time he actually spent having military training. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jonbem Posted 2 December , 2019 Share Posted 2 December , 2019 (edited) I remember seeing a documentary that described how many men with either digging, mining, sewer or tunnelling experience were rapidly sent to the front without much basic training as the need for them was greater with the Engineers. Perhaps others on this forum can expand on this? Edited 2 December , 2019 by jonbem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 2 December , 2019 Share Posted 2 December , 2019 Almost none. The decision to form 8 RE Labour Battalions was taken on 3 August 1915 to add to the RE Fortress Companies already in France for labouring duties, Labour exchanges were trawled for men with labouring experience. The seminal work on the Labour Corps No Battle No Labour expands on this specifically mentioning the arrival of 1st RE Labour Battalion. There is also an anecdote about 5th RE Labour Battalion forming at Southampton on 19 August, they were in France by the 28th. These battalions were not there to fight but to work on roads and concrete machine gun posts so did not receive military training. My understanding is that at least initially they weren't even armed. Miners and tunnellers were something different but the principle was much the same. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 7 December , 2019 Share Posted 7 December , 2019 My grandfather was conscripted in August 1916 and was in France five weeks later. His peacetime job was laying railway track and since he ended up in the WR section of the RE he seems to have done a similar job in France. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bradford Posted 7 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2019 5 minutes ago, Ron Clifton said: My grandfather was conscripted in August 1916 and was in France five weeks later. His peacetime job was laying railway track and since he ended up in the WR section of the RE he seems to have done a similar job in France. Ron Hi Ron, It would be interesting to know if there was any continuation training held in France, especially seeing my Great Grandfather in a photograph, formed up (well marching easy!) in a rank with a rifle over his shoulder. Maybe the training was fairly rudimentary as their first role wasn't as a front-line soldier. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 7 December , 2019 Share Posted 7 December , 2019 I don't know, but he would have been in an infantry labour battalion for at least six months, since he was transferred to the Labour Corps - and therefore not before April 1917 - before joining the RE. I would have expected him to be given some rudimentary rifle training. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 7 December , 2019 Share Posted 7 December , 2019 3 hours ago, Ron Clifton said: since he was transferred to the Labour Corps Is "he" your Great Grandfather Ron? The subject of the thread was never in the Labour Corps. He died of wounds, still in 1st RE Labour Battalion in October 1916. There is a war diary for the unit at: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/49efc501a6264a6d88f512d58448e34f which makes very interesting reading as the OC makes detailed comment on the formation and employment of this (and other) RE Labour Battalions. There is no mention at all of military training or equipment. Clearly, as there is a photograph, the subject of the thread must have paraded with a rifle some where, perhaps in an earlier UK unit? Does the phot allow for the identification of his cap badge? More specifically, it records the death, with others, of the subject of this thread as a result of a shell burst on 4 October 1916. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 7 December , 2019 Share Posted 7 December , 2019 At the time he was wounded, the battalion were working from a camp in Montauban on the roads between Bernafay and Guillemont, bottom edge of the map/image at : https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=50.0298&lon=2.8055&layers=101465185&right=BingHyb Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Clifton Posted 7 December , 2019 Share Posted 7 December , 2019 Hello Max No, "he" in post number 6 was my grandfather. I was replying specifically to Paul Bradford's post number 5, not referring to Paul's great-grandfather. Ron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 7 December , 2019 Share Posted 7 December , 2019 Thought so, just wanted to clarify but my error in not noticing the grandfather in one case, great grandfather in the other! Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bradford Posted 7 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 7 December , 2019 6 hours ago, MaxD said: At the time he was wounded, the battalion were working from a camp in Montauban on the roads between Bernafay and Guillemont, bottom edge of the map/image at : https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/side-by-side/#zoom=14&lat=50.0298&lon=2.8055&layers=101465185&right=BingHyb Max Hello Max, Your information regarding the War Diary is interesting, as I only read the part around the time of his injury and found our their working location. I have yet to read it in more detail. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 8 December , 2019 Share Posted 8 December , 2019 Presumably you have noted that he died in 2/2 London Casualty Clearing Station (also known as 55 CCS) which was at Grovetown (Meaulte) at the time. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bradford Posted 8 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2019 Hi Max, yes, I had that information already, well, initially that he had died at a CCS that subsequently became Grovetown Cemetery. (I actually visited his grave long before I began serious research about him.) It took me a little research on here and other sites to ascertain the actual CCS there at the time. I seem to recall his being taken there was close to a changeover date between CCS's. Further to the above, I don't know what records the CCS's kept in relation to soldiers that were taken there, but I'd be very interested in following up that line too. Looking at the War Diary, Andrew was mortally wounded while making repairs to the Guillemont to Ginchy road. I'd like to go to there, probably in the next couple of months. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BIFFO Posted 8 December , 2019 Share Posted 8 December , 2019 On 02/12/2019 at 15:09, jonbem said: I remember seeing a documentary that described how many men with either digging, mining, sewer or tunnelling experience were rapidly sent to the front without much basic training as the need for them was greater with the Engineers. Perhaps others on this forum can expand on this? i read years ago Norton Griffiths would go around new recruits in England ,asked if any experienced miners-sewer ,if yes,he would "bribe"the man in charge with kippers/champagne or what ever to release the man to join his RE tunneling unit.the units never really were drilled,in fact I have also read when the first units attempted to board for France a jobs worth said no troops were allowed on board with out a rifle.The tunneling officer went and "acquired" some rifles,gave them to the untrained troops,they passed muster,boarded,on the voyage over the officer came around and took the rifles away in case some one accidentally shot their own troops Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 8 December , 2019 Share Posted 8 December , 2019 Paul Hopefully the map I posted will help with your trip! Any records from the CCSs aree in the National Archives series MH 106 but see what the NA have to say: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10949 He doesn't come up in the records on Findmypast so it must be assumed records for that CCS for that time are not among those retained. Max Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bradford Posted 8 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2019 Hi Max, Thank you for that. Looking at the maps its interesting to see that the roads are still in the same position as 1916. I wonder if it would be possible to locate their camp more accurately? Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaxD Posted 8 December , 2019 Share Posted 8 December , 2019 (edited) The war diary has the location at "near Montauban A 3 a/b 8" which is an odd way of putting a grid reference. The map sheet is 62C NW and I interpret that as A 3 a.99 80 which comes out just south of Montauban - attached courtesy of NLS and tmapper: Max Edited 8 December , 2019 by MaxD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Bradford Posted 8 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2019 8 hours ago, MaxD said: Paul Hopefully the map I posted will help with your trip! Any records from the CCSs aree in the National Archives series MH 106 but see what the NA have to say: https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C10949 He doesn't come up in the records on Findmypast so it must be assumed records for that CCS for that time are not among those retained. Max Thank you Max, Nothing found in the medical records. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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