Location of Hulls Farm near the Yser Canal

[Mark Hone]

Bury Grammar School old boy Private Herbert Bridge of 7th Kings Own Yorkshire Light Infantry, a professional musician in civilian life, was killed in the vicinity of Hulls Farm on 21st September 1917. He is commemorated on the Tyne Cot Memorial. I have a copy of  the moving last letter he wrote home and would like to feature his story on a future tour, but realise I do not know the present location of Hulls Farm. Could someone please enlighten me? Any help would be much appreciated. Herbert came from a very musical family; his uncle was a violinist with the Halle for many years and his older brother John S. Bridge became the leader of that world-famous orchestra. 

Edited 30 November , 2019 by Mark Hone

[EDWARD1]

Trench map 28SW4 U15d Hulls Burnt Farm 

 

Edited 30 November , 2019 by EDWARD1

[EDWARD1]

Here https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17.110639638207765&lat=50.7423&lon=2.9097&layers=101464921&b=1

[Mark Hone]

Thanks very much, Edward. I think that this might be a different Hulls Farm-the 7th KOYLI Battalion War Diary indicates that it was close to the Yser Canal and that working parties were sent out in the direction of Langemark, which is on the other side of the Salient from Ploegsteert. I haven't spotted Hulls Farm in a perusal of trench maps of the Pilkem/Boesinghe area but unfortunately my eyesight isn't what it was!

Edited 30 November , 2019 by Mark Hone

[bigjohn]

28nw2 st Julien 50°52.870'N 2°51.788'E  according to Gazetteer of the Western  Front

  John 

[EDWARD1]

Or 28NW2 C20c 2.2 

[Mark Hone]

Aha! Foolishly, I had assumed that Hulls Farm was on the other side of the canal, probably underneath the modern industrial estate but in fact it's just up the road from Bard Cottage Cemetery. Thanks very much for all of your help. It's not clear whether Herbert Bridge was killed in the long range shelling of Hulls Farm reported in the War Diary, which 'caused some casualties' or while on one of the working parties sent out from there. 

Edited 30 November , 2019 by Mark Hone

[jay dubaya]

I believe this to be Hull’s Farm Camp just north of Bard Cottage Boesinghe

 

J

[Mark Hone]

Thanks again for all of your help. 

[WhiteStarLine]

Hi Mark,

If you use preview.tmapper.com you can see the farm, canal and cemetery and overlay the appropriate NLS map.  Sheet 28.B.18.c.8.3 is 50.881215, 2.862558, which Google Maps can navigate to.  For future reference, if you centre another location tMapper will show the contemporary latitude / longitude and a menu option will forward convert the trench map reference.  Over 250 NLS maps are supported.

[Aurel Sercu]

Mark,

Of course, Hull's Farm is 100 south of "my" Talana Farm Cemetery. I pass along twice a day. Both 200 metres west of the main road Ypres - Boezinge.

 

But what I find odd ... Herbert Bridge was killed near it on 21 September 1917, when the front lines were  almost 6 or more km east, between Langemark and Poelkapelle. And apart from that : the Talana Farm Cem. and Hull's Farm area never were a battlefield area, the Germans never crossing the canal.

Are you very sure he died near Hull's Farm ? What source says that ? If there, maybe a victim of German shelling ? And even then : he remained missing and is in the Tyne Cot Memorila?

 

Aurel

[Mark Hone]

Aurel, the Battalion War Diary states that long range enemy shelling of the 7th KOYLI's positions at Hulls Farm caused  'some casualties' on the day Bridge was killed. I speculate in my school Roll of Honour entry for him that he might possibly have been killed on one of the working parties the Battalion is recorded as sending to recently-captured Langemark. 

[Aurel Sercu]

Mark,

Do you think Bridge was killed when on a working party to (at) Langemark, or that he was killed due to enemy shelling on Hull's Farm. Or maybe he was killed on a working party after leaving from Hull's Farm (and hence the mention of Hull's Farm)?.

 

If killed at Hull's Farm I would find it a little odd that he was not buried in Talana Farm Cem, as an identified ... (But true, there are a few (14/529) Unknowns at Talana Farm Cemetery ...)

 

Aurel

[Mark Hone]

It did occur to me that if he was killed in the shelling of the camp well behind the lines why was he originally reported missing and why does he not have a known grave? This is the link to my Roll of Honour entry. Looking at it again, I notice that there was a concern that the battalion would have to move into the line 'that night'. As it's a couple of years since I consulted the War Diaries, I can't recall if they did or not but there is also the possibility that he went missing during the move into the front line. Unfortunately, there wasn't anything in the material I had available to me at the time I was researching the obituary to allow any further clarification of the circumstances of his death. I did think that perhaps he might at one time have had a known grave which was later lost but articles in the local Bury newspaper make clear that he was originally reported missing and later presumed dead.

http://bgsarchive.co.uk/Filename.ashx?tableName=ta_boys_rollofhonour&columnName=filename&recordId=66

Only one other soldier of 7th KOYLI is recorded on the CWGC database as having died on 21st September 1917. He is 21813 Private E.J. Winstanley and he is buried at Dozinghem Cemetery.  However, there are three from 22nd September, all now buried in Westoutre Cemetery: Privates Ward (Grave K2) , Naylor and Hudson (Both K4/5). The CWGC paperwork originally shows the men buried at Westoutre K4 and 5 as unknown KOYLI but this has later been amended by hand with the names of Hudson and Naylor and the comment 'Joint + to be 'E''. Grave K3 is vacant. The Concentration document shows that the bodies had originally been discovered at 20.U.28.a.1.2. Plotting this using a Trench Map Co-ordinate Converter shows this to be on the western edge of Langemark, close to the Harry Patch memorial. Looks like they were all killed by the same shell. Quite how they ended up being reburied miles away at Westoutre is a bit beyond me. However, it possibly hints at what might have happened to Herbert Bridge the previous day. 

 

 

Edited 1 December , 2019 by Mark Hone

[Aurel Sercu]

Mark,

Indeed, Naylor and Hudson apparently were taken to Westouter after being found near what is now that modern stretch of the Boezingestreet, connecting the Milk Plant and the (old) Boezingestraat (leading to Pilkem and Boezinge, and 40 or 50 metres south of the Harry Patch Memorial.

 

Langemark - Westoutre : quite a distance ! Twenty km ! And so much "choice" nearby, dozens of cemeteries.. But true, many graves there were taken into it from elsewhere (Bikschote too) after the Armistice.

So it appears there is hardly any doubt : Bridge was killed (by shelling?) in a working party, coming from Hull's Farm ..

 

By the way, in Talana Farm Cem. one 7/KOYLI man, killed nearby (shelling I guess), but date of death 20 Sept. 1917. (Kitson, 3. L. 7)

 

(Edited : I am not sure if Kitson was killed near Talana Farm Cem.  indeed. I just ... took it for granted. And recently I found men - four officers - who were not killed nearby, but near Pilkem, almost 2 km east. This came as a "mild shock". They were all October 1917 or later.

Aurel

Edited 1 December , 2019 by Aurel Sercu
something that crossed my mind

[Mark Hone]

Thanks, Aurel. I shall look out for Kitson's grave. I was interested to read that the CWGC believes that there may have been other graves at Talana Farm, later lost, which are not commemorated by Special Memorials in the cemetery. 

Edited 2 December , 2019 by Mark Hone

[Aurel Sercu]

Mark,

True. And every time I read that it produces a deep sigh of frustration, making me wish I knew more about these totally forgotten graves ...

Aurel

[Mark Hone]

Is there anywhere that we could safely park our coach to see the Hulls Farm site and visit Talana Farm Cemetery next year? I've visited Bard Cottage with a group in the past but not Talana Farm.

[Aurel Sercu]

Mark,

There is not enough room to park a coach an the west side (= cemetery side) of the main road,. But there is room on the right (east) side (right = when coming from Ypres). I've parked there often. My car, Not my ... coach.  :-)  But there is room enough there for a coach ... Except that there are one or two gates of the private properties that should not be blocked. But if the coach driver remains in the coach, maybe there is no problem?

 

Hull's Farm is private property. The original (pre) WW1 farm was right behind the present farm, where the tall trees are. And should you enter the farm yard (the farmer now knows nothing about the history), there is a sign above the door saying "Talana Farm". But this is wrong. Talana Farm was adjacent tothe  east side of the cemetery, about the same size as the cemetery. But the farm was not rebuilt after the war.

 

Aurel

[Mark Hone]

Thanks again for all of this and for pointing me in the direction of tMapper. The co-ordinate converter website I used for my original Roll of Honour research no longer seems to be working. 

[Guest]

Looking at the KIA after the 22 Sept all 10 were placed near the rail line coming out of langermarch. Two of these Howson and Rogers were identified by discs, 5 were unknown KOLYI and 3 were unidentified, all in a row at 20a 6 9/8 all but one were placed in  V. D. at Cement House, 7 KOLYI left the area 29 Sept. The war diary records officers overcome by gas yet on days where several OR are KIA it records a quiet day! The original burial site is still open ground and accessible close to the Harry patch memorial

[Mark Hone]

Thanks again.

 Unfortunately we shall not be able to visit the Hulls Farm area this October, as our 2020 battlefields tour (along with all school overseas trips planned for the next few months) has now been cancelled because of the pandemic.