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Remembered Today:

Interesting photographs of Victorian headstone looks like CWGC


museumtom

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This is a curious pair of photographs, what do you think?

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Desertegney Parish Church

 

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21 minutes ago, jay dubaya said:

What are the names and dates in the headstones?

From the b/w photo [for Desertegney Parish Church]

 

on the left is: 

Gunner WJ Coulter

Date 8 August 18?? [1885?]

 

Of course it is not unknown for private headstones in the IWGC/CWGC style to have been created/erected later/outside the WW1 & WW2 periods.

 

Edit: Here is a Find a Grave link https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/28173765/w_-j_-coulter - date obviously clearer

 

On right is;

Corporal WH Jones

Date ?? February ????

 

Edit: here is a Find A Grave link: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/28173436/william-henry-jones  - date obviously clearer

 

 

Edited by Matlock1418
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One is

Jones, William Henry. (Donegal). Gunner. Royal Garrison Artillery. 15th Company. 104486. Date of death; 27/02/1917. Born;- Leicester. Enlisted;- Leicester. Death;- Died at home.

Grave/Memorial;- Near the East boundary. Cemetery;- Desertegney Church of Ireland Churchyard, County Donegal.

https://www.cwgc.org/find-a-cemetery/cemetery/73831/desertegney-church-of-ireland-churchyard/

The other is Victorian.

image.png.5c6e4b9c668fcf33050dd0ebb732fc91.png

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Semper Fidelis Bob! Semper Fidelis!

Kind regards.

 Tom.

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  • 1 year later...

museum tom,

I was wondering when you took this photo you will be happy to hear that the churchyard has been taken care of and the grass cut back my reason of asking is because recently ( I don't know how recently ) Gunner W.J Coulter's grave as seen in this photo has been replaced by a GWGC headstone I thought the people on here would also be interested to know the earliest recorded grave in this churchyard was lieutenant Harry Salter and I cannot find any information because he died on the 1st of December 1811 but I have constructed extensive research on the other too, hence I was wondering why and when W.J. was given a CWGC grave as he didn't die during the wars but in 1885 at Fort Dunree

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Hello Eoin, we are both in the dark on this one. I have no idea either.

Kind regards.

Tom.

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I don’t think it is a CWGC headstone, just in the style of. It has a slightly flattened top and the cross is not of a CWGC style... besides which he died before the Commission came into being. Something also tells me the badge is wrong for the period too... I’ll need to check that one though.

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1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

I don’t think it is a CWGC headstone, just in the style of.

Yes I agree.

1 hour ago, jay dubaya said:

besides which he died before the Commission came into being.

That's true, but more importantly didn't die during the qualifying period of 04/08/1914 and 31/08/1921.

The stone, being 'in the style of' a CWGC stone, suggests to me that the stone must postdate the beginning of CWGC's headstone rollout in 1920.

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Why are there no forms etc for Jones?

TEW

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I have never visited the location so have no idea which headstones were there / are actually there today.

I am interested to learn the actual situation on the ground today [or at least most recently].

I'm particularly very curious about the dating and sourcing of the photos.

They say photos never lie - but of course we know they can and frequently have done so from the start of photography.

The second / b&w one, looks so 'arty' - is it perhaps an edited & 'photoshopped' one?

Or, as I and others have earlier said, there is also little to stop modern replacement of an original Victorian stone with a private one in the 'CWGC' style [and/or even an earlier style with a 'Victorian' one come to that]

Chronology please.

:-) M

Edited by Matlock1418
typo - how did I not spot it before?
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  • 4 weeks later...

Matlock, the gravestones seen in both the arty photos are the current headstones 

in relation to the current situation the church has been sealed and a small concrete path constructed all vegetation is being managed well and poppy's painted on stones have been placed at the foot of the graves

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18 minutes ago, EoinMulhern said:

Matlock, the gravestones seen in both the arty photos are the current headstones 

Not criticising the single 'arty' b/w photo - it certainly looks very dramatic.  And a nice job.

Just clarifying that it is a 'current' situation and not a previous, or a photoshopped, image.

Just brings me back to my earlier comment - the older 'Victorian' stone appears to have been replaced [What happened to it?] seemingly by a private stone in the close style of a CWGC one [By whom?]

22 minutes ago, EoinMulhern said:

in relation to the current situation the church has been sealed and a small concrete path constructed all vegetation is being managed well and poppy's painted on stones have been placed at the foot of the graves

Good the churchyard is being cared for.

:-) M

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Possible that the replaced memorial in the style of CWGC has a mason's name or trademark, low down somewhere.

 

If so, that would give a line of enquiry to follow.

TEW

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15 minutes ago, TEW said:

Possible that the replaced memorial in the style of CWGC has a mason's name or trademark, low down somewhere.

 

If so, that would give a line of enquiry to follow.

TEW

 

  Or following on...   If the CWGC headstone is correct for timing, form etc, then it seems to me likely that the other headstone might be a later addition and, quite possibly, done by the same firm of masons as the CWGC one.  The "Victorian" one is uncharacteristic of  the time of burial but is characteristic of some headstones hither and thither done after CWGC came into effect-  there are, of course, nuances on CWGC (notched at top, etc) but "copycat" headstones for family reasons etc are not uncommon. As the headstones are side by side then to me it begs two questions.

 

1)  Whether there is any familial connection between the 2 men????   THE CWGC grave was put there for a reason and that reason is likely to be family connection (I speak from a family example in my family where apparent random location had hidden a family connection that was not immediately obvious- my problem one was in Cornwall)

 

2)  Whether the engraved regimental insignia if of the Great War or early CWGC period.  I ask because engraving a regimental crest does not come cheap if done freehand. On the other hand, CWGC keeps stocks of templates to stencil cut the crest and these would have been with whichever mason's firm held the contract for CWGC markers in that area. Thus, highly likely to have been done by the same firm of masons- and if the crest is one from the CWGC era that would suggest very strongly that it was done at the same time as the CWGC marker, by the same firm but as a private job.  I do not know what CWGC policy was on this but  an enquiry to Maidenhead should establish which firm put up the CWGC marker.

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