Evangeliness Posted 27 November , 2019 Share Posted 27 November , 2019 (edited) Hi, I'm a history student and I am interpreting the cartoon above. Can anyone please help me interpret center country? thank you very much My friends and I have so many debates on this >_< Edited 27 November , 2019 by Evangeliness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jay dubaya Posted 27 November , 2019 Share Posted 27 November , 2019 Welcome to the forum Evangeliness, nice to know debate is still live and kicking. The countries depicted in the cartoon are Britain, France, Russia, Germany and Austria/Hungary, we’ll that’s my take on it anyway. J Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeliness Posted 27 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 27 November , 2019 7 minutes ago, jay dubaya said: Welcome to the forum Evangeliness, nice to know debate is still live and kicking. The countries depicted in the cartoon are Britain, France, Russia, Germany and Austria/Hungary, we’ll that’s my take on it anyway. J Thanks a lot By the way, cool signature. Makes me think of a good start of Sci-fi (lol, jkjk, I'm not that creative) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 27 November , 2019 Share Posted 27 November , 2019 Welcome to the forum Evangeliness. I concur with Jay, so the central figure with the spiked helmet (pickelhaube) represents Germany. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeliness Posted 30 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 30 November , 2019 On 27/11/2019 at 22:14, FROGSMILE said: Welcome to the forum Evangeliness. I concur with Jay, so the central figure with the spiked helmet (pickelhaube) represents Germany. Ok Thank a ton ^3^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 30 November , 2019 Share Posted 30 November , 2019 (edited) On 27/11/2019 at 12:40, jay dubaya said: The countries depicted in the cartoon are Britain, France, Russia, Germany and Austria/Hungary, I beg to differ The countries depicted L to R are Russia, Britain, Germany, Bulgaria & Austria-Hungary see Tsar Ferdinand I of Bulgaria, who has I think, been mistaken for a Frenchman Edited 1 December , 2019 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 November , 2019 Share Posted 30 November , 2019 (edited) I don’t think so Michaeldr. The kepi that appears to be worn is a lower type than that favoured by Austro-Hungarians, but above all, the fringed epaulettes are an iconic indicator of French provenance in this case. Edited 30 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 30 November , 2019 Share Posted 30 November , 2019 (edited) Your comments on the uniform are noted But it does not look like a French kepi to me and it appears to match the photograph It is my interpretation of the cartoon that the four powers (Russia, Britain, Germany & Austria-Hungary) are trying to keep the lid on the pot by sitting on it while Tsar Ferdinand of Bulgaria is actually standing behind the pot with his right arm slighly lowered, as if he is stoking the fire as indeed he was in September/October 1912 Edited 1 December , 2019 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 November , 2019 Share Posted 30 November , 2019 (edited) I note the significance of the political circumstances in the Balkans at that time and you make a very convincing argument. For me though we would need to find a representation of the Bulgarian leader with fringed epaulettes and a kepi that matches more closely in height. Edited 30 November , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 30 November , 2019 Share Posted 30 November , 2019 (edited) Here are pictures of the Bulgarian Tsar wearing bullion fringed epaulettes. But never with a kepi. There is some reference to the relevant Balkan’s crisis here: 1. https://nzhistory.govt.nz/media/photo/balkan-troubles-cartoon 2. https://courses.lumenlearning.com/suny-hccc-worldhistory2/chapter/the-balkan-powder-keg/ NB. I see that you haven’t changed your views from almost 10-years ago despite going against the apparent tide of opinion: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/143553-the-boiling-point-punch-cartoon/ Edited 1 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 1 December , 2019 Share Posted 1 December , 2019 8 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: I see that you haven’t changed your views from almost 10-years ago despite going against the apparent tide of opinion: https://www.greatwarforum.org/topic/143553-the-boiling-point-punch-cartoon/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin astill Posted 1 December , 2019 Share Posted 1 December , 2019 I wonder how expert the artist was on the minutia of uniforms. E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 December , 2019 Share Posted 1 December , 2019 38 minutes ago, edwin astill said: I wonder how expert the artist was on the minutia of uniforms. E Yes I did think that too, but according to the quoted sources above there seems to be a pretty universal interpretation of the countries directly involved at the strategic level of that time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 1 December , 2019 Share Posted 1 December , 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: there seems to be a pretty universal interpretation of the countries directly involved at the strategic level of that time. As well as the evidence of the headgear, the nose and the beard.......compare post No.8 with the original cartoon...... my feeling is that France would not be sitting on this pot lid as she didn't have a horse in this race. On the contrary, she thought that she could benefit from the conflict: by persuading Russia to fully back Serbia and thus provoke Austria-Hungary, who in turn would then bring in Germany. It was Germany who was France's real target at that time as she looked for the next round of the Franco-Prussian conflict and the chance to regain what she had previously lost. Bulgaria on the other hand was seen as over ambitious by almost everyone, the Ottomans, Russia, Serbia etc etc. Ferdinand had declared his intentions already, by calling himself Tsar, and it is widely believed that he kept a full set of imperial regalia handy for his hoped for enthronement in Constantinople. The Bulgarians called-up 30% on their male population and (in Europe) they had a larger army than Turkey. They even succeeded in getting to the Chataldja line, very, very close indeed to Constantinople, frightening not only the Turks, but the Russians, and everybody else Edited 1 December , 2019 by michaeldr Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 December , 2019 Share Posted 1 December , 2019 (edited) You have already made that ostensibly compelling argument, although I do appreciate that you’ve gone to some trouble to explain it in more detail now. I think that the solution will be to hear from any forum members from France, Germany and other countries associated with this matter and see what the websites and research materials in their native languages say about the iconic cartoon concerned. As things stand I am yet to be convinced, but will be happy to learn differently on the basis of primary source, or contemporaneous evidence beyond the modern, English speaking origins that we have so far. Edited 1 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michaeldr Posted 1 December , 2019 Share Posted 1 December , 2019 23 hours ago, FROGSMILE said: I see that you haven’t changed your views from almost 10-years ago See you back here in another 10 years then Bye for now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 1 December , 2019 Share Posted 1 December , 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, michaeldr said: See you back here in another 10 years then Bye for now Let’s see if others can pitch in.... Your swimming against the tide, but I respect your conviction. Edited 1 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evangeliness Posted 8 December , 2019 Author Share Posted 8 December , 2019 Thanks everyone, despite the great debate here (and the one I had with my friends hehe). I think the guy on the right is Austria-Hungary...? (Correct me if i'm wrong but that's what i think I'll be submitting ) - Ev Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 8 December , 2019 Share Posted 8 December , 2019 (edited) 5 hours ago, Evangeliness said: Thanks everyone, despite the great debate here (and the one I had with my friends hehe). I think the guy on the right is Austria-Hungary...? (Correct me if i'm wrong but that's what i think I'll be submitting ) - Ev You were asking about the central figure in your initial post, and answers were based upon that. Now you refer to the ‘right’ side figure (which as already said represents the Hapsburgs of Austro-Hungary). Which is it that you were unsure of? Edited 8 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 8 December , 2019 Share Posted 8 December , 2019 (edited) Ferdinand is often shown in contemporary cartoons: often referred to as ‘Ferdie’; usually wearing epaulettes; never with a kepi (that I can see): EDIT: now that I look at the cartoons more, he is always shown with his pointy beard. The figure in the Boiling Point cartoon has a square-cut beard, and therefore is not Ferdie. Quod erat demonstrandum. images from www.pinterest.co.uk; punch.photoshelter.com; canny.click Edited 8 December , 2019 by Uncle George Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 8 December , 2019 Share Posted 8 December , 2019 (edited) Yes, and his tunic is invariably double breasted, and headwear either, a typical Eastern European style forage cap, or a fur Kucsma. Whereas the man with the square cut beard has a typical French kepi with gold lace band around the base and vertical lines of braid at the cardinal points. Edited 8 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 9 December , 2019 Share Posted 9 December , 2019 Whereas France is often represented as a swarthy chap in uniform, epaulettes, kepi. As in this American cartoon, which is to be found on Wikipedia. (That’s enough cartoons. Ed.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 December , 2019 Share Posted 9 December , 2019 In that case the Frenchman is Immediately preceding John Bull and the key feature identifying his relatively small figure is the turned back fronts of his coat. The rest of him is not very distinctive by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle George Posted 9 December , 2019 Share Posted 9 December , 2019 37 minutes ago, FROGSMILE said: In that case the Frenchman is Immediately preceding John Bull and the key feature identifying his relatively small figure is the turned back fronts of his coat. The rest of him is not very distinctive by comparison. Apart from the giveaway ‘FRANCE’ emblazoned on his coat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FROGSMILE Posted 9 December , 2019 Share Posted 9 December , 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Uncle George said: Apart from the giveaway ‘FRANCE’ emblazoned on his coat. ha ha, yes! Hadn’t spotted that on my phone screen. I love how the American cartoon has conveniently labelled everyone so that ‘John Doe’ knows who they are. If only they’d done that on the subject cartoon of this thread. Edited 9 December , 2019 by FROGSMILE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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