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Remembered Today:

Frederick Clark, Gunner RGA Citidal Plymouth


Steve Clark

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Can anyone point me in the right direction.    I am trying to research my grandfather, I have his marriage cert. which states he was a gunner in the RGA based at the Citidal Plymouth at the time of his marriage in 1908.    I have looked through endless army records of the period on a visit to Kew but no joy.       Understand that the RGA would have been made up of malitia in part and as such he may not be in any of the regular army record. I have not been able to find any milita records for this period so a bit stuck at the moment!   

Any tips pointers etc would be grateful, thanks

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A name and any other information you have would be a great help to let the 'big guns' on the forum swing into action :-)

 

Children's birth certificates would also show fathers occupation, usually with Rank and Regiment \ Corps as a minimum. Through that you might be able to follow his Army career - particularly if he might have completed his period of enlistment by the time the war broke out. Standard Army terms of enlistment were 12 years, (7 years in the Colours, 5 in reserve, with variations within that available), 21 years for a pension with the option of extending after 12 by years at a time rather than going straight to 21 or beyond.

 

Of course he could have been discharged on grounds of health or dishonourably - which would probably rule him out of the war until conscription.

Of he could have purchased his way out.

 

I assume you have not been able to track him down or his wife on the 1911 Census of England & Wales?

 

Cheers,

Peter

 

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More info has been added to this thread than to the other (zilch at the moment), which I've "reported" to a Mod so (s)he can sort it out.

 

Steve: don't worry, "reporting" in this case isn't as severe as it may sound. Our Mods - indeed, us ordinary members too -  are very kind towards recruits finding their way around the barracks (but they can be very strict with Old Sweats who push the boundaries :w00t:.)

 

Moonraker

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I think his pension record is on Ancestry. Service number 22588. Married Elizabeth Ann Nixon. No WW1 service I can see so maybe that is why the topic has been deleted.

Peter

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The relevant page of the Plymouth 1908 marriage register shows his marriage was either to Theresa Bussell or Elizabeth Ann Nixon , so that makes sense. He is recorded with no middle names.

 

The marriage took place in Q2, so it may simply be a coincidence that the birth of a Frederick William S Clark, mothers’ maiden name Nixon was registered with the Civil authorities in the same district in Q3 of 1908.

 

Looking for other children registered with the surname Clark, mothers’ maiden name Nixon prior to September 1911 when the information starts being included in the published quarterly register of births in England and Wales brings up one other potential match. (NB – even in the other sources available for pre 1911, a lot of mothers’ maiden names are blank or mistranscribed, so it’s not perfect).

 

That other match was a Dorothy Clark whose birth was registered with the Civil Authorities in Q1 of 1911 in the East Stonehouse District of Devon.

 

Given how common those other first names are, Dorothy seemed the obvious place to start on the 1911 Census of England – there can’t be too many Dorothy Clarks in Devon born in 1911 when the Census itself was taken on the 2nd April – although that of course assumes the family were resident there.

There are actually two in Devon alone, but there is a clear match for both of the children and the parents.

 

The two month old Dorothy Clark, born Stonehouse, Devon, was recorded living at 10 Phoenix Street, Stonehouse, Devon.  This was the household of her parents Frederick Clark, (aged 35, a Hotel Pantryman, born London, Middlesex) and Elizabeth Ann, (aged 22, born Brixton, Devon). The couple have been married two years and have had two children, both then still alive. As well as Dorothy there is also Frederick William Sidney Clark, aged 2 and born Plymouth, Devon.

 

Fredericks' age on the 1901 Census, circa 25,  would have made him towards the top end of the likely age for a new recruit, so I suspect he was already in the Army at that point. If he was England and Wales with his unit then he should still have been recorded, but I’m struggling to find a likely match. Of course there were units of the RGA stationed in Ireland and Scotland and if he was with them then he would have been recorded by the relevant local census.

 

The absence was explained when I found his service records in the WO 97 series – he was in Malta from 1898 to 1906. As well as the source I use they will be on FindMyPast and includes details of his marriage to his wife Elizabeth Ann Nixon, (spinster) on the 7th June 1908 at the Plymouth Registry Office and the birth of son Frederick William Sidney Clark at Plymouth on the 15th August 1908.

 

He originally attested in the Royal Artillery on the 21st September 1897, giving his place of birth as Bow and his age as 21 years and 6 months. His service number was 22588. When the Royal Artillery split up into it’s component parts, he went to the Royal Garrison Artillery, (95th Battery?) from the 1st January 1902,  with service number 79037 . At one stage he made Corporal but was busted back to the ranks as a result of two trials. He finally saw out all 12 years of his enlistment serving in the colours and was discharged at Plymouth on the 20th September 1909.

 

(Having completed the full 12 years he was under no legal obligation to report back on the outbreak of war. If he signed up again it would a new term of enlistment and he would have received a new service number).

 

Fortunately I copied and pasted on Notepad all the above having typed it on the duplicate thread, only to see it all disappear into the ether when I hit submit :( as the thread had been deleted while I was typing so hoping it will both get there this time and it will actually help someone !

 

Cheers

(Another) Peter

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As an example of my route to finding this record I followed this path:

 

OP gave 1908 marriage in Plymouth. FreeBMD gives the two possible spouses as PRC.

No Theresa and Frederick in 1911 census but possible Frederick and Elizabeth Ann, two children named.

Looked for Dorothy Clark born 1911 in GRO birth records. Confirmed mother's maiden name NIxon.

Due to change in occupation Frederick had therefore left army by 1911.

Searched Chelsea pension records in Ancestry using birth year calculated from age in 1911 census.

Found pension record on Fold3 (fortunately have account) confirmed marriage to Elizabeth Ann Dixon.

 

Peter

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59 minutes ago, petwes said:

As an example of my route to finding this record I followed this path:

 

OP gave 1908 marriage in Plymouth. FreeBMD gives the two possible spouses as PRC.

 

To be quite honest, if there hadn't been two threads on the go I would simply have asked the OP for the stated age on the marriage certificate and the name of the spouse. That would have saved both of us going the convoluted way round to identify a likely birth year and give a corroborating piece of information that the right man had been found. Still, keeps me off street corners :)

 

Steve,

 

If the couple had children during the war years then fathers occupation on the birth certificate might show either service details or why he might not have served - in a reserved occupation for example. There appear to be potential births in the Plymouth District in 1914, 1915 & 1918 of children registered with the surname Clark, mothers' maiden name Nixon and none anywhere else in England & Wales during this period. They would also give an address closer in time to the 1918 & 1919 Absent Voters Lists - the 1911 Census had the four of them living in 2 rooms, so I can't imagine they stayed there.

See https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/soldiers/how-to-research-a-soldier/finding-soldiers-through-the-1918-absent-voters-lists/

 

Hope that helps,

The other Peter

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Well I am overwhelmed!  I asked the question hoping to get some guidance on where to begin to dig for info on my grandfather and low and behold you chaps have come up with all this information. Sorry Peter for not giving more info that I had, I did manage to get a copy of the marriage cert. of Frederick and Elizabeth Nixon which gave me the info. that he was a gunner in RGA at Plymouth citidal.

  I cannot thank you all enough.          Things do check out exactly right for me as I new the second born Dorothy (known as Dolly in the family) and my Dad when he was alive had told me their family lived around Stonehouse at one time, also it was said by my Aunt that their Dad Frederick was born in London and within the sound of Bow bells !

I will pursue the other children born, as they had 8, Frederick, Dorothy,Muriel,Violet,Florence,Richard born in17/05/1928(my Dad) , Iris and David came after that.

 

PS found the pension card, thanks Bob

        

 

Once again my heartfelt thanks  to you all

 

Edited by Steve Clark
correction
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Meant to add, I can see from his service record that he stood trail and was reduced from Corperal back to the ranks! It was a story in the family that he was a bit of a character and was believed to have thumped an Officer which would have been the reason for his being demoted.   

 Just for info: he was also apparently a bit of local Musichall turn and did an act as Burlington Bertie of bow!

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Hi Steve,

 

Glad we could help. The fact that his original pre-war Army papers doesn't reference later service isn't unusual if he was time-expired. So it doesn't mean he didn't serve - that would have been under a new service record although the two sets of documents can sometimes be merged.

 

As Muriel I, (Q3 1915) and Violet A, (Q1 1918) are the two most likely to have been born when (if) he was back in uniform, their birth certificates might be your next port of call. If he was home service only he wouldn't have qualified for any service medals, and then the only other reason for him to have a Medal Index Card would be gallantry, (unlikely in the UK), joined the Territorial Force and served long enough to qualify for the Efficiency Medal or if he was honourably discharged and received the Silver War Badge.

 

45 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

Other Peter said - The other thread included details of a Pension Card and a wife Elizabeth Ann, probably maiden name Nixon. As its disappeared is there any chance you could post it again?     

 

It was actually petwes who gave the pension card details - my original response in the deleted thread quoted that. When I had to repaste what I'd written into this thread my opening paragraph didn't make total sense unless I included that comment.

 

Forum rules essentially prevent us from posting material from subscription sites - hence why I couldn't post a copy of Fredericks' service record. There was no copy of the pension card on petwes's response, just a reference to it being on Fold3, a partner site of Ancestry which requires a separate subscription.

 

Cheers

PRC Peter:)

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PRC Peter

If I could just sidetrack Steve's topic a moment. You made a comment in #8 about the Absent Voters List. I've been looking for ages for an AVL for Plymouth with no success as most of my paternal family came from the area.  You don't happen to know if one exists by any chance?  (I had always assumed they had been destroyed in the Plymouth Blitz).

Peter

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Steve,

In case you are not familiar with the website FREEBMD enables a search for the birth register index.

These are the results for your family. Note that no results are returned before 1914 as mother's maiden name wasn't on the register index before that; however if go to the GRO website you can search by maiden name before that date:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

 

 

image.png.19dc87617e737ec5461b478b69aaa7e5.png

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11 minutes ago, petwes said:

PRC Peter

If I could just sidetrack Steve's topic a moment. You made a comment in #8 about the Absent Voters List. I've been looking for ages for an AVL for Plymouth with no success as most of my paternal family came from the area.  You don't happen to know if one exists by any chance?  (I had always assumed they had been destroyed in the Plymouth Blitz).

Peter

Sorry Peter I am a bit of a newbie with this and only just learnt about an AVL, if I do learn anything I will be sure to let you know

 

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14 minutes ago, petwes said:

Steve,

In case you are not familiar with the website FREEBMD enables a search for the birth register index.

These are the results for your family. Note that no results are returned before 1914 as mother's maiden name wasn't on the register index before that; however if go to the GRO website you can search by maiden name before that date:

https://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/Login.asp

 

 

image.png.19dc87617e737ec5461b478b69aaa7e5.png

Thanks for that Peter, I can recognise all but Margery and Audrey, but I do remember something about children that died young so maybe relatives I am unaware of.    I can see that my winter hibernation here in Pembrokeshire will be put to good use  with all this fascinating an so interesting

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4 hours ago, petwes said:

I've been looking for ages for an AVL for Plymouth with no success as most of my paternal family came from the area.  You don't happen to know if one exists by any chance? 

 

Sorry Peter - I have no specific knowledge although I've always been led to believe there are paper copies at the British Library.

 

4 hours ago, petwes said:

Note that no results are returned before 1914 as mother's maiden name wasn't on the register index before that;

 

For England and Wales the change took effect 1st September 1911, which messes up the Q3 1911 returns with one very small advantage. You had (and have) 42 days after the event to register the birth without facing a fine. The birth is then reported in the quarter registered, which isn't necessarily the same as when someone was born. So in a normal Q3, July to September, a child registered on the 1st of July could quite legally have been born in the middle of May - so you are looking at a 19 week period, not a 13 week one.

 

In Q3 1911 however, a child appearing with a mothers' maiden name had to have been registered on the 1st September 1911 or later, so is unlikely to have been born earlier than the middle of July. And similarly a child with no mothers maiden name shown wasn't registered later than the last working day of August.

 

The change was also made to the published quarterly marriage index from the same date so that partners' surname was now shown.

 

3 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

I can recognise all but Margery and Audrey, but I do remember something about children that died young so maybe relatives I am unaware of.

 

I can't see a death for a Margery E.E Clark, but there is one for a 6 year old Margery E Clark recorded in the Portsmouth District in Q2 of 1918. If that is the same child and she was the daughter of Frederick and Elizabeth Ann, this gives the potential that the death certificate may list fathers name, address and occupation if he was the informant.

 

The death of an Audrey N Clark, aged under 1, was registered in the Plymouth District in Q1 of 1924.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

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18 hours ago, PRC said:

 

Sorry Peter - I have no specific knowledge although I've always been led to believe there are paper copies at the British Library.

 

 

For England and Wales the change took effect 1st September 1911, which messes up the Q3 1911 returns with one very small advantage. You had (and have) 42 days after the event to register the birth without facing a fine. The birth is then reported in the quarter registered, which isn't necessarily the same as when someone was born. So in a normal Q3, July to September, a child registered on the 1st of July could quite legally have been born in the middle of May - so you are looking at a 19 week period, not a 13 week one.

 

In Q3 1911 however, a child appearing with a mothers' maiden name had to have been registered on the 1st September 1911 or later, so is unlikely to have been born earlier than the middle of July. And similarly a child with no mothers maiden name shown wasn't registered later than the last working day of August.

 

The change was also made to the published quarterly marriage index from the same date so that partners' surname was now shown.

 

 

I can't see a death for a Margery E.E Clark, but there is one for a 6 year old Margery E Clark recorded in the Portsmouth District in Q2 of 1918. If that is the same child and she was the daughter of Frederick and Elizabeth Ann, this gives the potential that the death certificate may list fathers name, address and occupation if he was the informant.

 

The death of an Audrey N Clark, aged under 1, was registered in the Plymouth District in Q1 of 1924.

 

Hope that helps,

Peter

Many thanks for this Peter, will look into this. As is often the case I suppose all my Aunts and Uncles are all gone now so noone living to ask.

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