barnsleyrunner Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 Could I ask for some advice on interpreting the attached document. Does this mean that Private Donnelly originally enlisted in the Royal Irish Rifles on 19th December 1914, and was subsequently transferred to the Machine Gun Corps Motor Section? Interestingly, the same person also rejoins the army in 1918, having been discharged as wounded in 1916. This was following the death of his brother, Lt Gilbert Donnelly, on 21st March 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 (edited) The answer is that he first went overseas on 19/12/14 to France. He was a Dublin man. Are you sure the Service record you show is the same man? It clashes with the record below. 139591 was RIF, Labour Corps and RAMC and a Belfast man. Find my Past have his (11432/159344/321477) Tank Corps Attestation under 7871558 He originally enlisted in the Regular Army 6/2/1914 He extended to copmlete 12 yrs with Colours 25/10/1920 He extended to complete 21 yrs with colours 22/4/1925 I suspect his Service Record is still retained by MoD ? charlie Edited 24 November , 2019 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsleyrunner Posted 24 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2019 Thank you. From what you have said, the two men are not the same, as the man in the second record was working for the GPO in Glasgow by 1920. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 (edited) Gilbert Donnelly has a Belfast address, Glastonbury Avenue, so he matches the RAMC man as a brother. Who are you researching ? Reenlisting RAMC after LabourCorps looks to fit the story better. Edited 24 November , 2019 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsleyrunner Posted 24 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2019 My main research is on Gilbert but I'm trying to establish what his brothers did during the war. Sorry, which RAMC man? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 (edited) RAMC man is the Service record you have 25684, 419802, 139591 RIF,LC,RAMC His Service record reads strangely-1915 he's a temp postman, 1918 he's a Dentist ! but that makes sense of RAMC. Much in demand (did you see those teeth in the coloured version of They Shall Not Grow Old ? R Inis Fus attested 24/8/15 Labour Corps Trf'd 7/10/17 ASC (MT) ?? trf'd 19/3/18 That's what Service Record reads on one page but elsewhere it says RAMC which is correct. RAMC ...... Edited 24 November , 2019 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsleyrunner Posted 24 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2019 The short service record? I thought is said Royal Inniskilling at the top? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 3 minutes ago, barnsleyrunner said: The short service record? I thought is said Royal Inniskilling at the top? Yes it says R innis Fusiliers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 PS see my edit to my post above re RAMC man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmf Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 (edited) The two can't be the same man; the service record shows enlistment into R. Innis. Fus. in 1915, transfer to the Labour Corps in 1917, and transfer to the R.A.M.C. in 1918, from which he was discharged in 1919. However, strangely, there is a sheet in the file showing, obviously incorrectly, that he was transferred to the A.S.C. (M.T.) rather than the R.A.M.C. I can't explain the 1918 enlistment papers for the L'pool R., by which time he's gone from a temp postman in civilian life, to a dentist, and seems shy about his previous military service . . . Chris Edited 24 November , 2019 by cmf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, cmf said: I can't explain the 1918 enlistment papers for the L'pool R Liverpool ? Ah- look at the stamp at the bottom - The Officer of the Liverpool Regt was Commanding the No6 RAMC Training Battalion . Edited 24 November , 2019 by charlie962 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 5 minutes ago, cmf said: The two can't be the same man; You should discard totally the MGC/Tanks man that you started off with and stick to the RIF/LC/RAMC man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmf Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, charlie962 said: Liverpool ? Ah- look at the stamp at the bottom - The Officer of the Liverpool Regt was Commanding the No6 RAMC Training Battalion . So he was!! Thanks charlie962!! Heck, how did I miss that?? . . . anyhow, what on earth was a new Short Service attestation required for, and why the dentist, and why no previous military experience . . . surely a practising dentist or dental student would have put that down in 1915, rather than temp potsman . . . and if untrue, seems a chancy thing to claim fraudulently when serving in the R.A.M.C. . . . Chris Edited 24 November , 2019 by cmf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsleyrunner Posted 24 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2019 Yes So discounting the MGC chap, we have Eugene Donnelly enlisting in the RIF 1915, then LC (presumably unfit for front line service) Then RAMC? Due to dental expertise? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsleyrunner Posted 24 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2019 The dentist and postman references are genuine. His father was a Belfast postmaster and Eugene had done some dental training. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 7 minutes ago, barnsleyrunner said: So discounting the MGC chap, we have Eugene Donnelly enlisting in the RIF 1915, then LC (presumably unfit for front line service) Then RAMC? Due to dental expertise? Yes to all that. See my edited post 6 above. I think his Service Record shows him being considered for Discharge from Labour Corps at some stage but those early 1918 entries are a bit muddled and need going through slowly. That June 1918 Attestation is probably misleading in that it shows 'no' to the question about 'previous military service'. I suspect therefore it was a temporary 'reconstruction' by the RAMC unit whilst waiting to recover his old file ? charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsleyrunner Posted 24 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2019 (edited) So the RAMC transfer was so he could assist in attending to the quality of men's teeth? Any indication whether this would be in England or in a theatre of war? Edited 24 November , 2019 by barnsleyrunner Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsleyrunner Posted 24 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2019 50 minutes ago, cmf said: So he was!! Thanks charlie962!! Heck, how did I miss that?? . . . anyhow, what on earth was a new Short Service attestation required for, and why the dentist, and why no previous military experience . . . surely a practising dentist or dental student would have put that down in 1915, rather than temp potsman . . . and if untrue, seems a chancy thing to claim fraudulently when serving in the R.A.M.C. . . . Chris Before 1921, being able to call yourself a dentist required minimal training or expertise. No formal registration needed. The 1911 census has him down as a dentist apprentice, with his elder brother as a dentist. Perhaps in 1915 he had taken up a temporary post under his father, the Postmaster. Presumably a university-trained dentist would have been in the RAMC as a captain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 24 November , 2019 Share Posted 24 November , 2019 8 minutes ago, barnsleyrunner said: Presumably a university-trained dentist would have been in the RAMC as a captain? I suspect so. There are several other relevant threads on this forum if you search for Dentist. The importance of good dentistry for keeping a man in the front line (ok, not actually to bite and hold) was one of many things learnt during the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsleyrunner Posted 24 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 24 November , 2019 1 hour ago, cmf said: Thank you So he was!! Thanks charlie962!! Heck, how did I miss that?? . . . anyhow, what on earth was a new Short Service attestation required for, and why the dentist, and why no previous military experience . . . surely a practising dentist or dental student would have put that down in 1915, rather than temp potsman . . . and if untrue, seems a chancy thing to claim fraudulently when serving in the R.A.M.C. . . . Chris Before 1921, being able to call yourself a dentist required minimal training or expertise. No formal registration needed. The 1911 census has him down as a dentist apprentice, with his elder brother as a dentist. Perhaps in 1915 he had taken up a temporary post under his father, the Postmaster. Presumably a university-trained dentist would have been in the RAMC as a captain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmf Posted 25 November , 2019 Share Posted 25 November , 2019 (edited) Dental provision was pretty woeful at the beginning of the war. The first paid army dentists were hired under contract in 1901, a grand total of four civilians under contract, with no army status, but pay of £1 a day, and a Captain's allowances. Between 1904 and 1908, eight whole-time army dentists were appointed to the Home Commands in the U.K., for £1 a day and travelling expenses, but no rank or army status, nor uniform. In 1908, in the UK, the whole-time army dentists were replaced by a system of part-time, local civilian contract. On mobilisation in 1914, no provision had been made for dental treatment in the field, nor did any dental practioner accompany the B.E.F. to France. To quote the Museum of Military Medicine website: Quote In October 1914, during the Battle of the Aisne, the Commander of the First Army suffered severe toothache and found that no British dentist was available to give him treatment. A request was made to the War Office that dental surgeons were to serve in the army areas and 12 were sent to France in November with temporary commissions in the RAMC. Despite these and later commissions of dental surgeons, almost all treatment for soldiers in the UK was carried out by civilian practitioners, many of whom were not properly qualified. This did stop in 1916 and an Inspecting Dental Officer was appointed to the staff of Deputy Directors of Medical Services (DDMS). Progress was slow but a start had been made and by 1918 there were 850 dental officers of the RAMC. NUMBER OF DENTAL OFFICERS, HOME AND IN THE FIELD, 1914-1918 YEAR NUMBER COMMENTS 1914 (AUG TO OCT) 0 NONE WITH EXPEDITIONARY FORCE 1914 (NOV) 12 FOR FRANCE ONLY 1914 (DEC) 20 FOR FRANCE ONLY 1915 (FEB) 36 INCLUDING THE FIRST FOR HOME 1915 (MAY) 57 1915 (AUG) 150 1916 (AUG) 300 COMPULSORY SERVICE ACT 1916 (DEC) 463 1917 (DEC) 501 1918 (AUG) 714 1918 (NOV) 850 (Adapted from Official Medical Statistics of the Great War (1931), in Proceedings of the Royal Society of Medicine, Vol XXXII, Dec 1938) Edited 25 November , 2019 by cmf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barnsleyrunner Posted 25 November , 2019 Author Share Posted 25 November , 2019 Thank you So we can surmise that Eugene Donnelly was transferred in part to provide some knowledgeable assistance to those dental officers? On another note, it is stated above he transferred to the RAMC on 17.3.1918. Yet the above document was dated 11.6.1918. Why the discrepancy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
charlie962 Posted 25 November , 2019 Share Posted 25 November , 2019 6 hours ago, barnsleyrunner said: On another note, it is stated above he transferred to the RAMC on 17.3.1918. Yet the above document was dated 11.6.1918. Why the discrepancy? 17 hours ago, charlie962 said: That June 1918 Attestation is probably misleading in that it shows 'no' to the question about 'previous military service'. I suspect therefore it was a temporary 'reconstruction' by the RAMC unit whilst waiting to recover his old file ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Dan Posted 25 November , 2019 Share Posted 25 November , 2019 Thanks for all the input. Eugene and Gilbert were my great uncles. I'd always wondered who the brother mentioned in the clipping was! His father worked for the GPO in Belfast which explains the postman and Glasgow GPO jobs. His brother Billy (my gf) and John were dentists with practices in Belfast and I suspect Eugene probably did some training with them (I never heard that he had a practice). He was considered a "Black Sheep" in the family but actually he most likely had some mental health issues which may have influenced some of the transfers alluded top above. Great info - thanks!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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